Thread: Shaving with Queen Steel #25?

Originally Posted by time2shave

I don't have to shave with a knife, I just want to know if it's doable. And if not, why.
And I would not attempt to shave with a kitchen knife made of some junk stainless steel. But 440C should be suitable for razors, if properly treated.

So then, less than 60 Rockwell is no good for razors?

Not no good. Perhaps less good.
If the grain is fine and the edge smooth you
might have to strop it half way through
to finish the other side of your face.

Try it....

The knife is not designed for shaving it is designed for cutting, Just like a SR is designed for shaving and not cutting...
The heat teat and grind are secondary to the design of the blade... They are both capable of doing the other's job just not as well
Yes you can get it sharp enough to cut hair, there are people that shave with axes too,and you can scrape it down your face and Video it and look cool... but about 20 minutes later yer going to realize why we kept telling you it was a bad idea...

As to how??? we don't really have any ideas for you beyond how to sharpen a knife anyway, then strop the crap outta it and go for it...


I hope that answers your questions...

You all are probably right in that this knife would make a poor shaver. I would just like to know why. It's got the same steel as some quality razors, at least nominally. Which parameters of the knife blade design make it unusable for shaving? There are only so many. Any expert metallurgists on here?
I think so far we possibly have heat treatment/hardness and steel grain as obstacles.

As to the geometry of the blade, aren't the "full wedge" razors pretty much the same thing as a knife?

The blade I have has an overall angle of about 7 degrees. By the time I put a bevel on it, I will probably have something like 20 degrees. Is it too blunt of an angle for shaving?
Or should I just lay it down flat on a stone and not have a bevel? It would be a LOT of grinding trying to get an edge on it that way!

I don't have any decent hones yet, but I am looking to buy some.

Thanks.

I think there is a difference in the finished steel. Razors seem to be more brittle than knives. Lots of people have chipped razors just by tapping them on the faucet while rinsing. I've never chipped a knife while washing it.

That said, if it's sharpened as well as a razor, there is probably nothing other than a lack of a tang designed for a shave friendly grip that would prevent it from shaving well.
There is also nothing that prevents a razor from slicing tomatoes well.
In both cases there are tools that are actually designed for the job.

Finally, if you're really interested in the metallurgy you could try posting a question in "the forge" which is a sub-forum of the workshop.

Originally Posted by time2shave

You all are probably right in that this knife would make a poor shaver. I would just like to know why. It's got the same steel as some quality razors, at least nominally. Which parameters of the knife blade design make it unusable for shaving? There are only so many. Any expert metallurgists on here?
I think so far we possibly have heat treatment/hardness and steel grain as obstacles.

As to the geometry of the blade, aren't the "full wedge" razors pretty much the same thing as a knife?

The blade I have has an overall angle of about 7 degrees. By the time I put a bevel on it, I will probably have something like 20 degrees. Is it too blunt of an angle for shaving?
Or should I just lay it down flat on a stone and not have a bevel? It would be a LOT of grinding trying to get an edge on it that way!

I don't have any decent hones yet, but I am looking to buy some.

Thanks.

Do you want to know why people don't shave with knives, or do you want to use your knife to shave. This last post of yours is confusing me.

No matter the grind of a razor, the spine is used to set the bevel angle. Knives don't have a spine like that. So right there, their geometries are different. I believe this is also one reason why you cannot get the edge on a knife to the same level as a razor (I mean, besides the base steel and the HT) - you need the bevel angle to be dead on exact for EVERY stroke to form a shaving quality edge.

I would also say again, that the steel itself, not to mention the HT, is questionable. I haven't seen anyone say that 440c is the same steel used in any razors, and I wouldn't really trust the maker of a cheap knife to be totally upfront about what steel they use. And then, of course, is the question about the HT.

I really think that trying to get that knife to shave would yield a rather poor shave and cost you A LOT of time. If you are just learning to hone (regardless of any experience you may have sharpening knives or anything else), the amount of time you'll likely spend goes way up. Unless you are really just trying to satisfy your curiosity about shaving with a knife, why spend the time?

If you really want to know about the steel, I would say post in the forge section. Or find someone who really knows steel and knows at least a fair bit about razors and just send them the knife. It couldn't have been expensive. They can give you some insight into the steel. Or just try honing the thing to a shaving edge yourself in order to learn if it can be done. Otherwise, this thread is entirely speculation.

Originally Posted by HNSB

I think there is a difference in the finished steel. Razors seem to be more brittle than knives. Lots of people have chipped razors just by tapping them on the faucet while rinsing. I've never chipped a knife while washing it.

That said, if it's sharpened as well as a razor, there is probably nothing other than a lack of a tang designed for a shave friendly grip that would prevent it from shaving well.
There is also nothing that prevents a razor from slicing tomatoes well.
In both cases there are tools that are actually designed for the job.

Finally, if you're really interested in the metallurgy you could try posting a question in "the forge" which is a sub-forum of the workshop.

Bingo....
This is an astute observation!
Regarding the fragile nature of a razor
in contrast to the tough nature of a
knife.

According to this, Henckels Friodur Inox were made of 440C.

Vintage Straight Razors - J.A. Henckels - Friodur - Inox No Stain - 7/8 - Full Hollow - Cocobolo scales

Originally Posted by time2shave

As to the geometry of the blade, aren't the "full wedge" razors pretty much the same thing as a knife?

Nope, most knives are a convex grind. There are no convex grind razors. I know there are hollow ground knives but they are not hollow all the way to the spine like a razor.
A full wedge is just that, a full wedge, but many are simply 1/4 hollows that have been worn flat.

Originally Posted by time2shave

According to this, Henckels Friodur Inox were made of 440C.

Vintage Straight Razors - J.A. Henckels - Friodur - Inox No Stain - 7/8 - Full Hollow - Cocobolo scales

Interesting, and something I was unaware of. So that leaves the question of the HT.

Originally Posted by Slartibartfast

I will let you in on a secret,you do not need to spend $200 for a setup today either. Just don't tell any one that I told you .

You should be banned! LOL

But since the cat is out of the bag, good razors at an affordable price can be found either in the classifieds or the vendors here at SRP. Happy hunting and welcome to the brotherhood!