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I have been playing with this old blade and noticed that Norton 220 is about 3-4 times slower than 400 grit wet or dry (silicon carbide) sandpaper, even when Norton is freshly lapped. Anyone else had same results?
I wonder if it is because silicon carbide is harder?
Thanks.
I've been told that it is the greater concentration of abrasive in the sandpaper. Cuts very fast but a person can get in trouble in a hurry if they are not careful honing with sandpaper ..... so I hear ... I stick with the stones.:)
I don't really like the Norton 220 for razors. Under 1k, I prefer a Chosera or a DMT. Haven't tried the Shaptons.
What is your reason, if I may ask?Quote:
Originally Posted by holli4pirating
I agree with not using the Norton 220. I've used it for taking gouges out of tools, and what I don't like about it is that the stone breaks down so quickly that it starts to dish and develop shape irregularities that make it difficult to put a straight edge on something. If you have to really grind off a lot of metal, IMO Norton aluminum oxide sandpaper, glued to a flat surface, is the best choice. 80 grit is a very fast cutter, if you need to do serious grinding. 120 grit is a bit safer. Of course, a low grit DMT would work too, but a pack of sandpaper only costs $5. Depends on how much use you think you might get out of the DMT in the future.
But if you just want to reestablish the bevel on a blade in decent condition, just stick to a Norton 1000 stone, as mentioned above.
What Min said. For me, going to a 220 means you have a lot of work to do, and most likely on a heavy grind razor. For me, the 220 dishes in that time. Also, the grit that breaks off can scratch the razor.Quote:
Originally Posted by time2shave
Also as Min said, you will have to decide if a DMT or sandpaper is better for you. For me, the answer is DMT - I hone a lot.
BTW, this comparison between the Norton and the sandpaper is just another example of how factors other than the grit can play such a large role.
The lowest I ever go is my DMT 600. That is only if I am removing some bad chips or if I need to do lot of work on a wedge.
Of course I only hone my own razors but I can't see a need for me to ever go below 1K even with chips and bad bevels and all that. For years I did it all on the Norton 4K so the 1K seems like the ultimate to me. I have the 220 but I don't think I've ever used it.
My problem with Norton 220 is opposite of dishing. I have too much swarf build up. I presoak the stone before use and add water every 10-15 laps, but after a couple hundred laps I see a rusty looking stain appear in the middle of the stone. And it starts feeling slicker. I go through a lot of wet and dry sandpaper to keep it lapped and clean. If I was to use the sandpaper directly, instead of using it for lapping the Norton, I would probably get 30 times as much cutting done.
It has to be something I am doing wrong.
Sounds like it would be cost effective to get a DMT or a Chosera or something else.
Is swarf clogging a function of blade steel?
I am working on an old IXL by Geo Wostenholm & Son's, Washington Works, Sheffield, England.
I have been eyeing a 325 DMT. How does it compare to Norton, as far as clogging goes?
Thanks.
Clogging is something that happens on many synthetic waterstones. Swarf is typically a combination of steel and hone; don't forget the grit and binder break down as the hone releases it's surface to expose fresh grit. I would assume your "clogging" is from steel and hone.
The DMT325 works for serious restoration honing, and has the advantage that it can also be used for lapping. I could probably count on one hand the number of times I have actually taken a razor to my 325, but that's just because I personally would rather use something less aggressive and spend more time. Others do take razors to their 325's.
I have never experienced clogging on a DMT, though they do now and then benefit from a quick rubdown with scotchbrite or similar. And, of course, they don't dish and, if treated correctly, last a LONG time.
From a "most economical" standpoint, I'd say get the 325 and use it for serious restoration honing and lapping. If you are willing to spend more, I would recommend the 325 for lapping and a finer DMT (600 or 1200 or is there another one?) for restoration honing.
Past this particular razor, I don't know if I will have much need for DMT 325, but I might.
Right now, I need to establish an edge and Norton 220 has been slow as molasses. I breadknifed the edge and I would estimate my edge was about 5 mil wide at the toe and maybe 4 mil wide at the heel and close to zero in the middle. I spent roughly 10 hours on Norton 220 and got the toe to about 1.5 mil and the heel to about 1 mil. I am using straight strokes on the hone. This just doesn't sound reasonable to me, but I may be wrong.
I would probably be better off with a narrow hone and X-strokes on this razor, but I figured as long as I have this nice wide Norton, I can "train" the razor to this stone.
What is the ballpark figure for the number of times you can use the DMT 325 to lap Norton before the DMT gets too "worn out"?
Well I guess this goes to show that breadknifing IS NOT a quick way to deal with edge damage. I don't see how a narrow hone and X's would help at all; you can do X's on any width hone, and a narrow hone just means less surface area, which equals more strokes required.
You can lap with a DMT325 regularly (several touchup lappings per week) for years with a DMT if you do it correctly (light pressure, under running water, don't let grit build up, etc). taking a razor to it should have no resulting wear at all.
13 posts into the thread and the problem finally rises to the surface :)Quote:
Originally Posted by time2shave
You breadknifed the edge and you are using the wrong system to bring it back, if you had included that wee bit of info in the beginning you would have saved hours on the hones...
Now you might as well continue through with what you started but for a 10 minute fix or less even go to youtube, search "gssixgun" you will find videos of how to use breadknifing and how to re-bevel the edge, there are a few vids there...
I don't post them on SRP because beginners use that system when not needed... Breadknifing is an extreme restoration technique not even part of honing... in fact the vids on youtube have a warning posted about using it :D
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
Abrasive papers and films do have a very dense and also oriented abrasive load.
As such they can cut very fast. I am a fan of 15 micron film on glass for bevel
setting for this reason but prefer the feel of a hone now that I have a big
DMT to keep my hones flat.
Having said this we also need to double check the vendor specifications
for the products being compared. I looked today and Norton has (recently?) posted
a pdf file that is interesting for multiple reasons.
http://www.nortonindustrial.com/uplo...ningStones.pdf
It is interesting because apparently Norton has a 15000 grit (0.5 micron) finisher that I have
never seen offered for sale. For Norton combo fans like me, they also peg their 4K at 6 microns
and the flip of the combo stone 8K at 3 microns. They also appear to use the Japan system
for their water hones. While abrasive and binder can change how a hone works and feels, this
info makes me more confident in recommending a Norton 4K/8K combo or the near equal Na3k/8k combo when all I have personally is the Norton.
The softness of the Norton 220 especially with a slurry is kinder to the
very hard steel in razors than a DMT220 would be. Chips on the edge from
low number coarse hones are quite difficult to notice and are also difficult to
get out.
Well, I finally got some spray glue and glued wet or dry 400 sandpaper on glass. Much faster than Norton. I established a bevel in about an hour. It would've taken me 5-6 hours with the Norton.
I got the razor to shave, but it still pulls a lot. I need to spend more time on higher grits.
I was impatient and shaved about 2/3 of my face with it anyway. :D
For me, if a razor "pulls a lot," it usually means the bevel wasn't properly set. I think you'll want to start a little lower than you think you should. Then again, the language is subjective, so maybe I'm reading it differently than you wrote it.
I think I got it just above the threshold where it will shave facial hair. If I cut a wide swath, I can see the skin move as the razor tugs at the whiskers.
I have taken it all the way to Chinese 12K, though apparently, it was not ready for it.
I don't know if I need to go back to 1K or 4K Norton. I am leaning toward 4K.
Did about 400-500 strokes on 4K. Worked up to Chinese 12K. Much better, but still not there yet. Shaved kinda like a dull DE blade.
Still, I got a full shave out of it. BBS in most places. And only one small nick. Not bad for my first straight razor shave! :D
After I shaved, I went back to the hones, I dropped down to 1K and am working my way up from there. Already I am seeing better results at each stone than I did before. I guess my bevel was not fully set after all, though I could not tell it with my loupe.