Thread: My VERY PRELIMINARY Norton 4k/8k progression

I've had my Norton for about a week now, and in that time I've done about 20 razors on it. I just wrapped up my first test shave straight off the 8k, and I've very pleased with the results. It was a close shave with no pulling or tugging - couldn't even tell the razor was cutting the hair. In my book, you can't ask for much better off an 8k. As an added bonus, I was able to use some of the Canadians at the Toronto meet as guinea pigs (and they didn't even know it!) to help me get some outside feedback on a 4k/8k progression.

So, here's the long version (skip to "Before long" if you're not interested in my ramblings):
I love my Naniwas, but the one annoyance is that they swell/shrink when they get wet/dry. That means, at least for me, that I leave them under running water to wet and stabilize, then lap, then do all the honing on the given stone, and then set it aside and repeat with the next one. It's not really all that bad, but it does bug me that if I want to go back to the 5k or just do one razor or have to get up and come back to honing later that I may need to re-wet/stabilize/lap. But with the Nortons, I don't have that issue. Sure the 4k needs to soak, but I can short-term store it in water, which makes that a non-issue. So that was the main reason I wanted a Norton of my own - Times when I don't feel like doing the Naniwa sink dance.

So I set a round of bevels, had the 4k soaked and ready to go, razor in hand, and then it occurred to me that, in contrast to honing on Naniwas, I didn't know exactly what I needed to do on the 4k. So I started playing with circles and before I'd even flipped the razor over to do the back side, I was displeased. My beautiful white 4k was black, and it didn't rub off easily (like with the Naniwas). I don't like honing on metal, because metal on metal is not something I want. What to do? Well, I looked at my honing tray and spotted my coti slurry stone. Hm... a little coti slurry typically prevents hones from loading. It also speeds the cut process a bit, rubbing will clean a hone, and it's fine and gentle. YES!

So I gave the 4k a bit of a rubbing. The intention was not to create slurry, but rather to clean the Norton. The slurry is a nice byproduct, but I always try to keep it to a minimum. So I started off doing circle sets followed by a few X's, and then tested the edge. On the X's, I noticed that the stuff running up onto the razor was a mix of steel (of course...), coti slurry (of course...) and also some Norton slurry. A lightbulb went off, and I filed that into the back of my mind; more on that shortly.

Before long, I came up with what seemed to be a reliable way to get the 4k as far as I could (given minimal testing...) consistently. Here's what I do:
-Put some clean water onto the hone.
-Rub lightly with my coti slurry stone just to clean off any embedded steel
-Two sets of 20 circles per side, all with light, even pressure
-10 X strokes with very light pressure
-Repeat (the clean water keeps things diluted, keeps the stone surface wet, and rinses off excess swarf)

Now, remember how I mentioned the Norton slurry I was getting on the razor as well. My mental model of honing tells me that I can usually get the best results off a hone if I finish without any slurry at all, or with an extremely light and already honed on slurry. So, to do this on the 4k, here's what I do:
-After I have done my above progression on every razor I'm going to hone in the sitting, I rinse off the 4k, rub it with just my fingers (for additional cleaning), rinse again.
-Give every razor 15 very light X strokes, adding water as needed to keep the hone wet (no slurry, no rubbing, no nothing - just 15 X's per razor, all in succession)

Now, with each blade about as far as I could take if off the 4k, I did some similar testing on the 8k. And, to my surprise, I found that the exact same method seemed to work. (I won't bother to copy paste.)

So here's what I'm really liking:
-No need to vary pressure - it's pretty much all the same, though I do try to lighten up on the X strokes
-Quick cleaning - the quick coti rub keeps the hones from loading, so I can do however many I want
-No dilution - Yes, I'm using slurry, but since it's always so light I don't have to dilute while working on a given razor. Just adding water to keep the stone wet is sufficient. (To me, this adds consistency)
-Minimal stone prep - Yes, I will probably still lap my hones before each round, but they stay clean and there is no Naniwa-like stabilization, so it's quick and easy. If I want to sit to do just one razor, I can. If I need to get up and come back, I can. No extra lapping required.
-It speeds up the process - At the Toronto meet, I was using a Norton with no slurrying. It seemed to take about 1.5 to 2x the number of circles, and that was with a bit of pressure on the first set
-It seems very consistant already - I just test shaved 15 razors straight off the 8k. A mix of American, English, and German razors and a range of grinds. All were right where I wanted them.

Naturally, I'll continue to play and tweak, but since the exact numbers will vary from person to person anyway, I figured it would still be worthwhile to post my initial results. It's nothing etched in stone (har har), but it's a jumping off point for me and anyone else who wants to try it.

Thanks for the post. Just been looking for some info to get some different results oit of my Norton 4k/8k. Just have to get a coti slurry stone and I'll give this progression a lash. Thanks for posting.

Interesting Dylan.

I still use the Norton 4K/8K daily with honing and the one thing I have learned about using any stone is that there can be a lot of personal variation and still consistent results. For some reason, I still go through a couple of the 4K sides of the Combo stone each year......

The 4K side definitely will show the accumulation of metal or darkening so to speak, but I have found no diminishing in its ability to continue to cut. I normally will do a dozen razors at a sitting on mine before a quick lapping/cleaning. The 4K to me has a lot of cutting power on it's own. The 2 sets of 20 circles each way with some pressure followed by 2 sets with no pressure and 5-10 X Strokes before going the the 8K side for 6-10 strokes with no pressure is still the most consistent method of obtaining a good shaving edge with extreme consistency for me. Still need a good bevel set to lay the proper foundation.

It's funny how so many of us do similar things differently. I use the Naniwa 5K and 8K the same as using the Norton Combo stone, but I do my honing and them lap and clean the stone before putting it up for use the next time. When I'm ready to hone again, I just soak it a couple minutes or spray it until water doesn't soak in and start honing. This has worked great for over a couple years not with the consistency of these stones and the circle method producing very reliable and repeatable results. I have worn out a few Naniwas too without any problems.

My jury remains out on playing with slurry on the synthetic stones. They cut so well on their own that I cannot find any improvement that comes from the slurry. I'm also not sure from a method standpoint that there is the same level of consistency when using the slurry. I would agree though that you can certainly ease up on the pressure when using the circle method with slurry.

Whether doing circles, pyramids or slurry on the one stone method, I am convinced that no pressure on the blade is the key from the 4K on through whatever you finish with.

Keep us posted as you play with more razors using this approach.

Lynn

.........

Lynn, I had wondered about your lapping method, because I remember when I was at your place and I was lapping those Naniwas after I finished. It makes sense, though. After honing, the stones are stabilized to their wet orientation, so lapping then and re-wetting before the next use should always get them back to the same point. I just hate lapping after honing for some reason.

I think my decision to hunt for a no pressure method is just a personal one. I still use a very similar method on the Naniwa 5K/8K from when you first sat me down with the Naniwas back at Joe's. Just the minor tweaks to get it to work for me. Its extremely consistent for me as well. I just thought I'd try to change up some factors with the Nortons to give me an alternate method of attack. And I definitely agree on the no pressure once the blade is set on the 4k or 5k or whatever.

It really is cool how so many roads lead to sharp. Keeps things fun, because there is always another path to find.


SLART, just read the lines that start with a -

I basically do what Sham told me to do on my Norton 4/8, because it's worked pretty well every time I do it. I use pretty light/no pressure like you did and Lynn suggests, and I usually just do x-strokes. The edge gets to where I need fairly quickly that way and doesn't raise much Norton slurry or really clog the stone. I'm still terrible with the TPT, so I use arm hair (my left arm is not happy about that!). On the 8k, Sham told me that I don't want to see any black and I don't want to overdo it, because I risk getting microchips. I've never seen this microchipping myself, but it may be because I've never needed to do much on the 8k if my 4k edge was popping hairs the way it should. Usually 50 or so no pressure x-strokes on the 8k and I'm good to go. It's weird how the 8k changes the edge even though I see no black swarf on the stone. It might not be visible to my eye, I guess. I've tested this 8k edge (after stropping on linen and leather) a few times and have been surprised by how nice it is. I remember we talked about this a while back and I couldn't believe you, but I've been sold ever since I shaved off the Norton 8k.

Anyways, thanks for posting this, Dylan. It was an interesting read and I'll be curious to see what else people come up with so that I can try it when my method doesn't get me where I need to go on a particular razor.

Thanks for your post Dylan, it was an interesting read. You have convinced me I need t get me a Norton myself. I currently use Naniwas in my progression, but I've experienced the same hassle as you with the swelling. I'll try Lynn's approach, I may have been over eager on the soaking. Perhaps that will change my experience.