Thread: Better of two lapping options

I watched the whole 4 part series...cause I eat that stuff up.

IMO, the short...and rather unhelpful...answer is that "perfectly flat" is a quantitative and "perfectly sharp" is qualitative.

Your sheetrocking chore and Parthenon video series may be good illustrations. You sound like a natural perfectionist, you're in good company here at SRP, so I have to ask if your closet is "perfectly" square. No, of course it isn't.

I've never worked construction but I grew up on a farm and have built/framed structures, formed up and poured concrete, hung doors...and even sheetrocked. NEVER have I produced or worked on a "perfect" structure. (In the quantitative sense of the term.) I HAVE produced "perfect" results. (In the qualitative sense.) When you're mudding/sanding that closet you're after a perfect finish...yet you won't once measure the end result in any quantitative way...you will measure it in qualitative terms. You know that the closest will be minutely skewed in some way, that the sheetrock will be minutely bowed before you screw it to 2x4's that you didn't plane on a wall that you know is not "perfectly" plumb. Yet you are after perfect results. You can only get them because "perfect" is measured by the way it looks, the way it feels, and the way it seems to be. It is a qualitative result.

When sharpening, anything, we are after qualitative results. Granted we use our quantitative knowledge of hones and stropping compounds.

The Greeks were after perfection. They wanted a Parthenon that "looked" perfect. To do so they had to deliberately make a structure that had few, if any, square or plumb lines on it. They mentioned several times that the columns "looked" identical but were actually all different. The floor is deliberately, and quite measurably, *unflat* because they wanted it to look/feel flat.

So, get your toga on next time you hone.

Lap your stones flat. Not so you'll get a sharper edge, but so they are more predictable, making an edge that feels perfect a little easier to get. We provide enough variables through our hands, we want to minimize the variable that the hones put in the equation.


(Sorry that was so long. Sometimes I can't help myself.)

EDIT: On far less...err...philosophical note I highly recommend this little gadget if ever use any of the DMTs

The 2" version is perfect. Got mine at Harbor Freight, but they are all over the internet. They're cheap enough you'll likely spend more on shipping than the product. Stick that sucker on the back of the DMT and no more tired fingers from lapping, and no more sliding around in your hand when sharpening you axe. (I consider them required if you going to lap 8" stones with a 6" DMT.)

I read a similar thread here a few months back. I seem to think that it may have been Lynn who pointed out that a hone doesn't have to be perfectly flat. If it's pretty close that is all you need as most razors will not be perfectly straight. That's why there are so many different honing strokes, so it can accommodate the imperfections you often come across.

Soilarch--I really enjoyed your response. It's like a little touch of Pirsig. I think Pirsig would have enjoyed this site.

It took me a few more days than I expected, but I finally ordered (and promptly received from SRD - thanks guys) a Naniwa 12K hone. We had an out-of-state move and a hurricane in there, too, so I hope you'll excuse my tardiness in replying.

At any rate, I couldn't wait to see if I could actually tell the difference between an 8K edge and at 12K edge, so I opened the package as soon as it arrived this evening and got down to business. My son (who just started kindergarten last week) had fun drawing reference marks on the hone, and I had fun lapping them off with my DMT W6CP. The center of the hone was low, but a scant few minutes of the figure-eight (roughkype) and beyond-the-edge (Soilarch) techniques flattened it right out.

(As a side note, I am amazed at how quickly the 325 grit DMT erodes away the Naniwa. I thought it would feel like rubbing a rock, but it was more like rubbing a bar of soap. OK, two side notes: I was surprised at how aggressively the hone and the lapping plate stuck to each other. This tendency increased noticeably as the hone became flatter, just as roughkype indicated in his three-hone example. Pretty neat.)

Once the hone was flat, I went to work on the razor. I'd just shaved earlier in the day using my normal 8K + strop edge, so I knew the blade was in good shape. I also re-strop after every shave because... heck, I don't know. It just seems like a good idea to put your tools away in actionable condition.

I've spent a fair bit of time recently with my son's 20X dissecting microscope inspecting the cutting edge of the razor, so I had a good sense of how scratchy even a 'smooth' 8K bevel looks at that magnification. I decided to give the razor about 40 strokes on the Naniwa, with the lightest of touch, then take another look under the scope again before stropping and shaving.

(Another side note: sharpening on the DMT feels like rubbing a slab of metal covered in diamonds . Sharpening on the Naniwa feels like butter. I can see why people love these stones; they're very forgiving, and tactile-ly pleasing.)

Upon focusing the microscope, I was amazed to see how much smoother the bevel was after honing at 12K. To use a macro-level comparison, the result was equivalent to the difference in the plastic headlight lenses on my 12 year old pickup truck after buffing them out with one of those polishing kits a few months back. The bevel was still a little scratchy, but overall it was really smooth and shiny.

Encouraged with the results so far, I headed to the bathroom, finished up with about 25 strokes on the strop, lathered up, and started shaving - a real three-pass shave.

Pass 1 - With the grain: Incredible. The difference in the 12K edge from the 8K edge was undeniable. The razor glided smoothly over my face - so smoothly, in fact, that I was worried that I wouldn't notice if I started taking off more than stubble. The 8K edge had an... an... let's say an 'assertive' feel to it, by comparison. After my first few shaves with the 8K, I wasn't too worried about slicing my face because it was pretty easy to judge what the razor was doing at any point in the process. With the 12K edge, I'll need to develop a more refined sensation in my hands and face before I'm comfortable again. And by 'comfortable' I mean safety-wise; the shaving comfort was sublime.

Pass 2 - Across the grain: This pass was very good, too; - roughly equivalent to going with the grain using my 8K edge. I didn't sustain any irritation, though I did get a few minor nicks while having fun trying to work around my nose and mouth. It wasn't the razor's fault; the cutting edge performed beautifully, and the resulting shave was smoother and far more comfortable than usual.

Pass 3 - Against the grain: In relative terms, this was a great day. In absolute terms, my face still hurt, though an order of magnitude less than before. By the end of the third pass, I had literally a hundred little nicks everywhere but the flat, easy parts of my cheeks. I'm not sure whether it's my blade or my technique, but cutting against the grain takes an unacceptable amount of skin along with the hair.

That said, the third pass took off all of my stubble - even on the tip of my chin, which has never been smooth. Sitting at the computer an hour or so after shaving, I went reflexively to scratch an itch on my arm using my chin, and realized that I didn't have any facial hair to do the job! Honestly, it's kind of freaky; I haven't felt my face like this in about 25 years. Fortunately, the nicks started to clot and I got that stubbly feel back Seriously, though, it's about 8 hours later now and my face feels good, despite the initial irritation. After shaving against the grain with the 8K edge, my face would hurt for two days.


To summarize, the lessons learned during this experiment are:

LESSON 1: The difference between shaving after honing on an 8K hone and a 12K hone are night-and-day. Even someone who's only shaved with a straight razor once before would notice the difference. If you have $75 to spare, a finishing hone is a worthwhile investment.

LESSON 2: Shaving against the grain hurts. It hurts less after using a finishing hone, but for me, the pain and bloodshed are in no way offset by the smooth shave - even as exceptionally smooth as it is.


So, I'll leave this post with an open-ended question:

QUESTION: Would anyone care to comment further on shaving against the grain?

Do you guys do this regularly? Does it hurt? Should it hurt? Is the problem with my honing technique, shaving technique, or something else?

I don't really need my face to be as smooth as it is right now. Frankly, I wear a beard half the time, anyway. I mainly just want to succeed at shaving against the grain for the satisfaction of having learned how to do so.

Thanks, all!


P.S.

Originally Posted by Soilarch

IMO, the short...and rather unhelpful...answer is that "perfectly flat" is a quantitative and "perfectly sharp" is qualitative... When sharpening, anything, we are after qualitative results.

While I'm loathe to disagree with a Senior Member, I'm inclined to believe that 'perfectly sharp' is also quantitative. I see and agree with your points about my closet and ancient Greek architecture, but it seems to me that we can measure the 'sharpness factor' of a razor's edge using bevel angles, coefficients of friction, and other such metrics. My inspection with the loupe and microscope reinforce this working hypothesis - for me, at least. Do you disagree?

I'm embarrased to be following such interesting posts with a facile response, but here goes anyway.

I only shave against the grain with a straight. I do this most days, it doesn't hurt and indeed shouldn't hurt.

If I shave with a DE, then I don't bother with ATG.