Thread: Totally stumped, can't get edge to respond. Can't eliminate reflective line at edge.

So I've been working on this honing thing for practically a whole year now and I simply can't get the edge past a badly-pulling level of sharp.

What baffles me is the reflective line. I'm using what's basically a toy microscope, but has enough resolution at 30-50x to give me a good look at the bevel, scratch patterns, etc. I can always see some light reflecting brightly from the extreme edge of the bevel, whether the light source is above or below. If I angle the blade up towards the objective I can't see any semblance of a dark line. If I do the Magic Marker test it will confusingly fail to even hide the reflective edge of the bevel, even if I draw the edge right through the tip of the marker.

I can get a dull razor to shave arm hair in about half an hour, max, EVERY time, without using any deliberate pressure, on 15 micron film or a Norton 1k. From this point on I can technically shave the hair off my face, but nothing I do seems to get me more than marginal improvement. I can pass the TNT, shave hair and the edge will dig smoothly into my thumbtip. I can't do the "pop arm hair" test because my arm hair is super fine and my leg hair lays down flat. HHT usually passes but I don't pay attention to it. I'm ONLY judging actual sharpness with actual shave tests with shower & soaking and ever-improving lather, but so far it's all going down the drain.

In short, EVERYTHING else seems to point to my bevels being set, but the bright edges won't go away and they won't respond to my 4k. I've tried adding slurries, circles, no tape, up to 4 layers of tape to see if the 4k or 8k could smooth the edge and nothing seems to have any effect.

It's not the razors, I've tried different ones with exactly the same results (all of them good razors). My stones are beveled and smooth and flat enough to hold each other's weight with suction. I used to use light one-handed x-strokes but I've started guiding with my other hand to help avoid lifting the toe.

So what can be happening here? Is it tactics or technique? If it were overhoning or a wire edge I'd be able to see it come and go, wouldn't I? And I don't understand how it can be underhoning, not while it passes so many tests, and I've been working on the stones for hours without intentionally dulling anything.

That just leaves technique, right? I can't find any theoretical flaw in mine, as much as I've tried. In my head every hone cuts much faster than in reality, and I handle the razors as if they did. Gently, that is.

I don't have a professionally honed razor for comparison (yet), but frankly I don't know how it would help right now because there's absolutely no mistaking my edge for a sharp one.

Can anyone spot any problems in my thinking? This forum is a fantastic place, but for the life of me, and all of everyone's advice, I can't seem to crack this.

How about you send me yer address in a pm, and I am going to send you a razor, that has the bevel well and truly set, then you hone it out to shave ready....
I think that might help you out...

If everything else says the bevel is set, stop worrying about the microscope.

Sometimes low quality optics will cause a halo effect. What you're seeing might not really be there.
Then again, it might be. Take Glen up on his offer, and compare that to what you're seeing. Then you'll have a frame of reference for working on razors later on.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

How about you send me yer address in a pm, and I am going to send you a razor, that has the bevel well and truly set, then you hone it out to shave ready....
I think that might help you out...

PM sent. Thanks Glen. You guys make this forum a great place.

Thanks guys. I've been trying to rule out problems one by one and figure out what's holding me back. At this point I've pretty much run out of ideas, though. The only thing I know for sure is that I'm not giving up.

My first honing success came from verifying a proper bevel with the magic marker test (mark the bevel then hone a little to see if you evenly erase the ink) then EXACTLY following the pyramid method instructions on a Norton 4/8. No more laps than indicated. Minimal pressure.

Good luck.

I will only add that I've had razors that I have honed and received great shaves from that seemed under bright lighting and 10X magnification to have light coming from the very top of the edge when the razor was held edge up. When I reversed the razor to edge down there was no light coming from the edge. When I looked at the edge, edge on, with bright light on it, there was no light, indicating a proper bevel. Because the shave had been so good, I concluded that bright light and 10X (or even higher magnification) can be tricky sometimes. I check for a good bevel with bright light directly on the edge. If there is any reflection, even a slight glinting of light, the bevel is not yet set. If the edge "divides" and does not reflect the light, the bevel is set, and it is time to continue with the rest of the honing progression.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you are probably having problems caused by pressure when honing. That usually will leave you with an edge that is not where you want it. The other thing because of trying so many things, you may be using a lot more strokes or circles than you need to. It would really be nice if you could find someone close to sit down with and see what's up. Any reason you are fixing or gauging the brightness of your edges?? One recommendation would also be to pick a method like a pyramid after the bevel is set well at let's say either 10 or 15 and work down from there. No pressure other than the weight of the blade. If you do circles after bevel setting stick with 40 circles each way on the 4K with pressure and then 40 circles each way with no pressure followed by 5-10 no pressure X strokes followed by 7-10 no pressure X strokes followed by 10 no pressure X strokes on your finishing hone. Strop and test. If close, but not there, you can try 10 strokes on CrOx or .5 diamond or 3-5 more no pressure on the finishing stone. Point is try something repeatable and watch your pressure to see if the results start getting better. Stay off the microscope and as long as the bevel is set well let your test shaves tell you what may be going on. Razor going over your face easily usually means over honed. Razor cutting some hair with a little pulling may actually be close. Razor stopping in the beard, needs a little more work like going back to the 4K or 8K. Relax and don't push yourself to the point of frustration.