Thread: Which hone for finishing?

Originally Posted by mparker762

There's a good reason the old barbers put smiling edges on their blades, the barber hones are much easier to use on smiling edges. My King barber hone puts an absolutely wicked edge on my smiling blades, but it's a good way for me to dull my straight edged razors.

That's not the reason the barber manual tells you to do it in order to avoid a frown, which gives a bad shave. In other words, a smile is not presented as any better than a straight edge.

I recently determined that over time a hone which is not as wide as blade length but wider than half will give you a frown. That's because the ends of the blade spend less time on the hone than the middle. I believe that's why the barber manual discusses the smile. It would make the barber compensate for the typical width hone.

If you're getting a better edge with a smiling blade it probably has something to do with the way you shift the smiling blade as you're honing. If you used even pressure with both blades they should hone the same. If you put both blades on a wide hone with even pressure, the ends of the smiling blade are honed less, and eventually you will end up with a straight edge. To keep the smile, you would have to use more pressure at the ends of the blade, like the barber manual teaches.

Originally Posted by Billy

Ah, thank you for the little lesson Mparker... I'm about to go pull my razor out and look at it. As far as Stones vs pastes... It think > $600 vs $10 might make pastes rub me a little better lol... but I am pretty stuborn, maybe that will change after I shave half my face off though =P

-Billy

Another thing that makes a difference for me is convenience. THe Norton 4/8 is the least convenient because you have to soak it first and working with it can be messy. Other wet hones I can use more easily by just putting a little water on them. But lately I prefer to work dry. You can use most barber hones that way, and some recommend it. Pastes are dry. If you're working dry you can do it anywhere, at a sesk or in an easy chair.

Pasted strops are also compact. You can get a 4 sided one with 6, 3, and 1 micron (equivalent to 3.5K, 8K and 14K) and plain leather on the fourth side. That lets you do everything except heavy honing on one tool, and at modest cost.

Originally Posted by Billy

Frictionite 00? I think I may have seen this come up somewhere before... is this a finishing stone as well? What kind of information can you lend on it? And if you would, keep me posted on that 12k Chinesse stone works out for you... I think I will try to toy with the Norton 4/8 for a while and keep searching for a good finish stone... im sure I'll need the time to toy with the 4k/8k before I really need a finish stone anyhow.

I have one, and as I remember it's two-sided. Fine side is good for finishing.

Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

That's not the reason the barber manual tells you to do it in order to avoid a frown, which gives a bad shave. In other words, a smile is not presented as any better than a straight edge.

I recently determined that over time a hone which is not as wide as blade length but wider than half will give you a frown. That's because the ends of the blade spend less time on the hone than the middle. I believe that's why the barber manual discusses the smile. It would make the barber compensate for the typical width hone.

We may be saying the same thing in different ways. With a smiling blade you don't overhone the middle on narrow hones because only a few millimeters of blade is actually touching the hone. With a flat blade where the entire edge is touching the hone then the middle gets overhoned because it's in contact the for entire pass while the toe and heel are only in contact at the beginning and end of the stroke. With a smiling blade you can control amount of hone contact by the rate you're rocking the blade. Additionally, if you're hand-holding the hone it's harder to keep the hone and a flat blade in perfect contact without using any pressure, this is even harder if you're standing at the sink doing a quick refresh, especially if you haven't had your first cuppa. The odds are pretty high that barbers noticed this as well. I haven't read any of the barber school manuals, which it sounds like you've done, so I'll defer to your knowledge as to the "official" reaons.

I'm trying to follow this about smiles and frowns. I understand what Joe's saying about a hone being more than half the width of the razor developing a frown over time - with the middle of the razor spending more time on the hone than the ends. Stands to reason.

What I don't understand are the techniques for compensating for this. How do you create a smile for a blade? Or is this just an original feature of the blade and you maintain it? What does it mean to "rock" the blade? I am imagining a semi-circular, scything movement, but it seems to me that this would increase, rather than decrease, the amount of time the middle of the blade spends on the hone.

Couldn't you just do an exaggerated x-pattern (think of it as a capital X), minimizing the time the middle of the blade spends on the hone? (Or is this what's meant by "rocking"?)

It's not clear to me how any of this could create the smile. Is that where pressure comes in - putting extra pressure when the ends are on the hone, lightening up in the middle?

Sorry, so many questions...

Originally Posted by dylandog

I'm trying to follow this about smiles and frowns. I understand what Joe's saying about a hone being more than half the width of the razor developing a frown over time - with the middle of the razor spending more time on the hone than the ends. Stands to reason.

What I don't understand are the techniques for compensating for this. How do you create a smile for a blade? Or is this just an original feature of the blade and you maintain it? What does it mean to "rock" the blade? I am imagining a semi-circular, scything movement, but it seems to me that this would increase, rather than decrease, the amount of time the middle of the blade spends on the hone.

Couldn't you just do an exaggerated x-pattern (think of it as a capital X), minimizing the time the middle of the blade spends on the hone? (Or is this what's meant by "rocking"?)

It's not clear to me how any of this could create the smile. Is that where pressure comes in - putting extra pressure when the ends are on the hone, lightening up in the middle?

Sorry, so many questions...

We have copies of the appropriate parts of the barber manual here so you can check it for yourself. The manual does not recommend rocking or scything or anything like that, which require skills that need to be developed. The newbie is taught to hone (I think it's five passes) the two ends of the razor separately using pressure and then to hone the middle using little pressure or none. In time the smile will develope, and they only suggest you create a slight one.

As I'm understanding it, this differs from the standard x-pattern in that the angle of the blade changes as you go through the movement -- the heel leads at the beginning, the blade then "rocks" forward during the swipe, so that the point leads at the end. Is this right? The blade stays flat on the hone throughout, no?

No, there is no "flat on the hone" on a smiling blade, because the blade is curved like a saber. The rocking motion ensures that the entire length of the blade contacts the hone at some point over the course of a stroke. The X pattern describes the horizontal path of the blade over the stone, the roll-n-roll describes the vertical path of the heel and toe above the hone.

It's a lot easier to do than it is to describe, actually. It's tough to visualize 3-d movement from a verbal description.

Originally Posted by Billy

The next question is, where to I obtain, or look to get more information about obtaining these hones? The Escher, Coticule or shapton? Also, this "Severe Quality Control" thing... is this something that can be avoided or is this something that should keep me from looking into that paticular hone?


-Billy

Ask Tony Miller about Eschers and Coticules. He sold them in the past and knows all ifs and buts.

Originally Posted by Kees

Ask Tony Miller about Eschers and Coticules. He sold them in the past and knows all ifs and buts.

Thank you Kees.

-Billy