Oh, great, very informative, I'll try it with the waterstone on top. The new lapping stone is larger than my last one, so may be better in that regard, to.Quote:
Originally Posted by niftyshaving
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Oh, great, very informative, I'll try it with the waterstone on top. The new lapping stone is larger than my last one, so may be better in that regard, to.Quote:
Originally Posted by niftyshaving
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider
It's not dry, you just do one swipe with a finger, so there's a bit of water left. When finished the hone is damp. It's something Glen does in his videos. :)
For the record, the Gotta delivered a nice shave today as well. :)
Well, with the late start... it's only the second day in, and I'm looking at this drawer full of rocks and starting to wonder why I bought them all in the first place.
Late reporting. Second shave had to wait till the face healed up from the irritation from shave 1. Last week, shaved with my favorite little Robeson. that shave was nice and smooth. I could feel the dif between the 8k and the finer finishes, but it was still rather comfy all around. Last night, shaved with that big ol Joe Smith wedge again. I could feel the irritation beginning almost immediately. I am fairly certain that this is my own fault, as I seem to be putting more pressure on my face when using this hefty chunk of steel. (its the heaviest blade currently in my lineup) Being new to such a big beasty, I might have the same problems no matter what I honed it on. Is it allowed to switch razors in mid test? a smaller , lighter, wedge might suit my shaving style better.
And would you recommend doing that, did you see anQuote:
Originally Posted by Blix
improvement?
I use the damp-stone technique quite regularly when finishing on the 8k side. I like the results I get, and they're consistent, which I feel is really important during honing.
Ok so my DMT325 arrived today and I got to lapping my 4/8 nice and flat and smooth.. (Or so I hope LOL) After that I took the Genco Master Barber I bought on Fleabay and got it ready for honing. (It had an edge that shaved, but nowhere near as well as my other Genco's) I should point out this is my first time on the hones....ever :)
After soaking the stones for 20 min or so, it was time to begin..
20 circles left firm pressure
20 circles right firm pressure
5 x strokes firm pressure
Check, Nope won't pop hair..
another 40 left, 40 right and 5 x strokes and this time it's popping hair, YAY
20 left 20 right medium pressure
20 left 20 right NO pressure
Then went for a Pyramid of 5-5 3-3 1-3 1-5
After that it was popping hair quite nicely and under the loupe (to my untrained eye) it looked pretty even and I didn't see any chipping etc in the blade..
100 Passes on felt
100 passes on Latigo Leather
after that I hopped in the shower for a quick prep and a shave...
Lathered up with some nice Uber (TOBS Sandalwood and T&H 1805) and went for the shave....
And the verdict is.......OUCH this is the harshest edge I have ever tried Did the WTG pass on my cheeks and didn't feel confident on trying anything else, so I finished with my Genco GoldEdge (which is a Damn fine shaver :) )
Oh well, I was hoping for beginners luck, back to the stones for more practice..... Practice and even more practice :)
I am still experimenting myself, but this is worth trying!Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin103
Tim
This is what I did for this exercise:
Did 10 figure eights on both sides of the Norton using my DMT 325;
Then, with both Hamburg Ring (Rogers) and Otto Busch Weltmaster on the Norton 4000
a.) 3 sets of 40 circles heavy,
b.) 3 sets of 40 circles medium,
c.) 3 sets of 40 circles very very light
Then on the Norton 8000
a.)one set of 10 circles – no weight
Then progressions 3x5, 1x5 and 1x10 on the 4000/8000
Stropped on Kanayama 20 linen and 60 leather.
Both razors have surpassed my expectations!!!!
Have shaved with both razors, alternating each daily, and have used different soaps including MFW.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxi
What Maxi said. It really works! :)
Yet another awesome Globusmen shave this morning :)
I fell off the JaNorton wagon. I had been using an old KB Extra razor since the last week of December. Today I took the razor to another hone.
The razor has a bit of smile in the blade. I did some circles on the 4k while slowly rocking the razor then some x stroke with a wee bit of pressure than some x strokes with no pressure. On the 8k I some x strokes with no pressure than some slow x strokes nearly using negative pressure (trying have less that the weight of the blade).
If I did not know there were better edges out there, I could live and be happy with the edges off of the 8k norton. I found that with edge of the 8k I could get good two pass shaves. The first pass would leave a little to be desired, especially on the neck, the following pass would get what I missed the first pass.
Two weeks with one razor-thats a long ride for me.
Charlie
I would give a 1-3,1-5 pyramid a quick try and then check results. If still not there try 3-5 on just the 8K. No pressure X stroke on both and then to the strop before testing. both these are good to try if you are close, no matter what method you chose to get there.
Have fun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgephillips
6th Shave
Razor : ~11/16" Dubl Duck SatinEdge - full hollow
Method :
For the first honing, I did 10 sweeping X-strokes on the N4k with a "little" bit of pressure, not much.
I then went to the N8k with just water. Using a little pressure, I did 10 sweeping X-strokes again, and did 10 more sweeping X-strokes with the OPPOSITE hand. I rinsed the hone and razor again, and did 10 X-strokes with my left-hand, then 10 X-strokes with my right hand with JUST the weight of the blade...no pressure. I then did 3 sweeping X-strokes with the LEFT, then 3 with the right, followed by 1 sweeping X-stroke (LEFT), and then 1 RIGHT. And then did the 1 sweeping X-stroke with each hand again (LEFT then RIGHT.)
I then stropped 40x on my homemade denim cloth strop, followed by 40x on my homemade cowhide leather strop.
Shave : I did my usual 2 pass shave (WTG, XTG), following the same prep procedures I always do. I think I've hit my limit really. There was no discomfort when applying witch hazel after my shave as I always do. This shave was just as good as shave #5 with my W&B. That full hollow edge just wiped away the hair. I don't think there's any point in me trying again with this razor...I know we were gonna stick with 2 razors for JaNorton, but if it's ok, I am going to try the same procedure on a few of my other razors to see if they will hone up just as well. I'm starting to believe there may be something to switching hands and getting those cross-hatching marks on the edge. If anyone would like to try one normal, then try that procedure, to check it out that would be cool! Prove I'm not just crazy! LOL
*EDIT* And just so you guys know for reference, my facial hair is REALLY coarse, so it takes a pretty darn good edge to give me a nice close, comfortable shave.
And on a side note...DARN you Glen! Now if I don't play with my Coti's to get a better edge, I'm gonna be stuck honing on Nortons! AKK!
Ok, went back to the hones with my TI Le Canadien & W&B 5/8 Bow Razor today.
Le Canadien
I started with a moderate slurry, 20 circles up and 20 back, moderate pressure. Then 5 X strokes, moderate pressure. It passed TNT so I gave it 5 more moderate X-strokes, but it wasn't doing a very good job on arm hair, so I rinsed the stone, raised a bit of a lighter slurry, refreshed the tape, then did another 20 up, 20 down with moderate pressure. Now it was starting to get there. Next step were about 10 X light pressure strokes with light slurry on the 4k. I refreshed the tape on the spine at this point in time. It was starting to dial in, so I rinsed the stone, did another 10 X strokes with just water, no pressure on 4k. Then I did another 10 X Strokes with no pressure and moved to a pyramid:
25/5 20/5 15/5 10/5 7/5 5/5 5/7 3/10 1/10
Now it was popping arm hair with ease, so I moved to the 8k for finishing. With fresh tape, I did 10 no pressure X strokes with water, then rinsed the stone again, wiped away the water with my finger and did 10 slow X strokes with the damp stone. Stropping is SRD Latigo 50/100 then 100 on my episaacs 'roo.
W&B 5/8 Bow
Pretty much the same routine as above, with similar results, though I needed less circles.
The shave test tonight was with the W&B, which didn't come through with flying colours. That said, it was better than last time, so I think, with a conservative pyramid, I might be able to bring it in line. More stone action tomorrow!
Full writeup of tonight's shave is up here: http://straightrazorpalace.com/begin...tml#post904966
These are some thoughts that i am having about pyramid honing. I wouldn't have time to prove these in January and maybe they have been thought of before so feel free to tell me I am wrong etc.
Here is an example of a process used. 25/5 20/5 15/5 10/5 7/5 5/5 5/7 3/10 1/10 and then go on to the 8k. People aren't testing in between the pattern like I understand they should. I think if the edge tests good at 5/5 then go on to the 8k to finish.
I am thinking more of the fellow honing his own and trying to sneak up on the edge. If it is close, I submit to do the second half of the pyramid. For example a 5/10 test and if you think it is good do your 20 damp on the 8k. [Or whatever trips your trigger!] Strop and shave the next morning. If it just isn't there yet do a 3/10, test and do 20 damp. Closer yet do 1/10 and test, then 20 damp. Strop and shave the next morning.
Most of us are not professionals. We are learning and are playing with our own tools. It might take you 2 weeks to dial it in but the nest time it will be shorter and we are not shipping out to someone else " the perfect edge."
Tim
Okay, so I've been using my Everkeen, and Carbomatic, for a week or so now, with one trip back to the 8K giving both 10 very light that strokes with just water, and then strapping 25 on the linen, and 50 on the leather, and so far so good I could live with this if I had to and be happy. The one question I have is the pyramid, even though I have used it and it works, I'm not sure I know why, as now I use each stone until I feel I have gotten the most out of it, and then move on to the next level and this seems to be working very well for me. If you are on the 8K, what good does it do the edge to bring it back to the 4K? As was said earlier in this post, as soon as you use the 4K you lose the edge, so why doesn't that apply when using the pyramid? As I've said when I first started out I did use the standard pyramid as I found it on the wiki, and it works very well but I really don't know why. Can anyone explain this?
Thank you
Griz
This is my take of this. I think it gets back to the 4k edge. The 8k polishes the 4k. If the 4k isn't right it might take a stroke or two to get it. But to test it you should polish on the 8k. The closer you get with the 4k you still need the 8k to polish it. The big point I think is missing is the testing in between. Test and polish the 4k. if it isn't quit right take a couple more on the 4k then polish on the 8k.
Tim
When I do the pyramids, there is quite a bit of testing involved. Most of the testing occurs with my thumb pad, some of the testing occurs with my arm hair, and the final testing occurs with my facial hair. Now, that being said, on a razor that is NOT shaving and has just had a bevel reset, 1 aggressive pyramid IME will rarely put you in the shave test category. Quite often you'll be doing a conservative pyramid or two conservative pyramids following your aggressive.
Secondly, if you have a razor that is tugging quite badly you probably won't start at a 25/5 pyramid, but closer to the 10/5 and go on up. Practice helps with that assessment. It it's just started to tug, you'll probably do a conservative pyramid with a 1/5,3/5 sort of thing.
In terms of why it works, I think it provides a way to eliminate 4k scratches from the bevel without doing damage on the 8k side. When I was first learning on my Norton's one of the trickiest things was to determine when the edge "felt" ready on a stone, successively that is. The pyramid helps eliminate some of that guesswork at the start. It also helps to polish out those big 4k scratches when you don't quite know how many laps to do on the 8k to make that happen in the first place.
I think the pyramid works well with two razors. It gives you an opportunity to produce a shave ready edge fairly quickly (not time-wise, but learning-wise) on one razor and test for sharpness and comfort, while you work on the other razor using a successive grit honing method and a loupe to view your scratch pattern.
I mentioned in an earlier post that something neat to do is take out your 4k (just for fun), and do 3 or 4 circles on it. Now switch over to your 8k and do 3-4 straight laps on it. Did the scratch pattern begin to change? How many more 8k laps does it take for you to eliminate the 3-4 circles scratches on the 4k side? Also....if you want to see how it works another way: Find an old junker that has massive amounts of honewear. Run it on any stone without tape, and you'll see your scratch pattern in the flat honewear areas. Use a finer grit stone to see if you can change that pattern, and how long it takes to eliminate it.
Great points by all. At my stage of honing, I am still just trying to figure things out, so getting a feel for the stones, seeing what type of scratches I get when I do different things (looking through my x15 loupe can be quite interesting), getting an even bevel and getting a razor that is able to shave comfortably. There are many of you for whom this thread is a revisiting, or a return to something more simplistic, but for me it's my maiden voyage. I very much appreciate the knowledge in here, even though a lot of it goes *whoosh* right over my head at this point in time.
I agree maxi, im on my 4th shave (actually my 8th but 4th for this razor) on one of my two for this test, and i only went through one cycle of pyramids after i initially set the bevel at med pressure. I touched up the blade (American Shear & Knife) with feather light pyramids and some additional 8k polishing to see if it would make the shave better, and it absolutely did. I may continue tomorrow with just additional 8k polishing to see if i can get it even smoother. This shave was great because i didnt slice anything unlike my last shave, the irritation was far less especially with some additional stone work, and barely any sting. Not a BBS shave, but a good close shave and I got to try my first soap puck instead of Proraso which was Penhaligons - English Fern.. Actually seemed a little slicker than proraso to me.
So all in all since my total number of straight shaves is probably in the low twenties in total i'd say that in the last 15 days I've become confident that i can at the very least set the bevel and hone to the point of at least shave capable at worst and semi comfortable but totally acceptable at best. I've been more amazed at how much actual shaving technique ive learned out of necessity of the blade conditions. More finesse, more attention to pressure and angle, and most importantly for me I now realize that pulling the skin and skin tightness is not just a suggestion but mandatory. Especially when the blade is not as keen, pulling the skin tightly for me (with coarse hair) makes the shaving far easier with far less irritation.
Time to look for a jeweler's loupe.
*** edit. I must have missed page 42 and didnt see your reply till this morning. Thanks Lynn for the suggestions to my earlier question! Had i read it last night i would have tried that pyramid method instead. I will give that go on my henckels tonight. Much obliged!
Ok, after a particularly trying day at the office I decided to give this honing thing another run.
So I soaked up the 4/8 and got my Genco Master Barber ready....
Even though I know it's not really necessary (it didn't have much of an edge after my LAST attempt at honing LOL) I killed the edge using the same technique Glen did in his honing video then proceeded to the 4k stone
Did about 5 figure 8's with the DMT325 to raise a touch of slurry then did:
3 sets of 40 circles heavy and 5 x strokes (Just back and forth with a slight heel forward cant to the razor, no "swoop" at the end) checked, nope, not popping hair
So, ANOTHER 3 sets of 40 circles (40 each way I mean) 5 x strokes and checked,,,,pops a little hair with effort but not quite ready
Again, another 40 circles.... 10 X strokes, This time it's popping hair but I think it could still be better
so one LAST set of 40 circles and 5 more x strokes... NOW it's popping hair decently
I looked at it under the loupe, and the bevel seems even (not that I really know what I'm looking at....) so I decided to move up..
3 sets of 40 circles and 5 x strokes medium pressure
3 sets of 40 circles and 5 x strokes NO pressure
Then I went for the following pyramid
5-5 3-3 1-3 1-5 and then 10 x strokes on the 8k ZERO pressure...
100 passes felt
100 passes leather
And this time the verdict is....SHE SHAVES!!! Did a 3 pass shave and while it's definitely nowhere near the smoothest blade I've ever tasted, and it wasn't the closest shave I've ever had, I got a decent shave out of it. it's not getting as close as my other pro honed blades but for only my 2nd time out on the stones I'm happy... Still have way more to learn :)
Wonder what I can do to make it smoother within the confines of JaNorton :) ....
Well after reading all these posts I think the pyramid is probably a great way to learn, as it seems many of the newbies like it and it works for them, it worked for me also. At this point in time, I think for me at least that the progressive way seems to give me quicker and better results. Not to say that I didn't learn a lot using the pyramid, mostly feeling the difference on the edge with the TPT, and going back and forth. The pigtail stroke, and the circle, for me anyhow seems to be the quickest way to getting to the edge I want. The best way that I have been able to tell that my method has been working is because I have a test subject in the house, my wife. She used to on occasion use my straight or my shavette to nip off an eyebrow hair or two, now that she sees my naked arms and patches of hair missing from my chest and thighs, she is afraid to go near them, this tells me all I need to know. And I guess it comes down to this different strokes for different folks no pun intended.
JaNorton has been boring me here lately... So, I decided to really test the edge. I used a latherless shave soap:Old Post Road #4. My last two shaves were very comfortable with that too... Just a really nice shave, nothing earth shattering
What is lather less shave soap? I've never heard of it, how you use it, do you use water? Is it clear on your face so you can see your whiskers, if so that would be great to use around a mustache or goatee especially if you're trying to change it or reshape it. Can you expand on that please?
The soap at the Marriot Hotel! :rofl2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzley1
It's just what it sounds like. No lather, so it it's totally clear. It's kind of odd actually not having the lather to to use as a guide.
I just wet my face, put a bit of soap in my palm and rub it all over my face. After my first pass, I just rewet my face and do the next pass. I'm not sure why, but I have not missed the "cushion". It actually feeds into my theory that what we normally attribute to a cushioning effect of lather may really be moisturizing effect that causes the skin to be so supple that reacts well to the shaving action and isn't irritated by the blade... It may be that without lather, it subconsciously causes even more of a lighter touch. Either way, it's actually a nice product that comes in handy on days when the result of shaving is more important than the process. It was actually when I overslept yesterday that I decided to give it a shot with a straight (it was pretty frequently used when I used a DE). Good stuff.
Where does one get this latter list soap? I would like to give it a try.
Since this isn't on topic and bordering on inappropriate commercial activity outside of the vendor corner, I'll PM you that information
This reminded me of something i heard as a technique used before concerning lather and stones. Does anyone have experience with using something other than water on the surface of the Nortons? (And by other I mean soap shaving cream lather, not oil) Has this been something that people have found to provide better or smoother polishing while honing?
Well Ja/norton participants, i got 2 more shaves since my last update, no honing, just good stropping maybe a little agressive,
but overall good smooth shaves, no iritation, no stinging with alum and witch hazel. Stropping is king! i really feel like both razors
improved with good agressive stropping, by agressive i dont mean with preasure i mean more then usual but the results speak for themself. I dont really think i can improved at the moment with doing more honing, its sharp, its smooth,i could easily shave with these results without any problems. So i continue to doing stropping only see how long the edges will last. Stropping regiment
is like this 40 linen 40 heavy draw leather, 40 fine almost no draw leather!
Should be interesting to see what your reaction is if you keep using one blade until you find it dull and then switch to the other, still sharp blade, and then wonder how you ever managed to still use the dull razor :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Martin103
Test shaved this razor tonight. Shave was alright, but it still needs a bit more smoothness. I will try a conservative pyramid in the next couple of days, then I'm going to shave with just that razor all next week until I dial it in. The following week will be dedicated to the W&B.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdto
Full writeup of my shave is here: http://straightrazorpalace.com/begin...tml#post906116
I had to be gone for awhile due to the military and had to drop out of this. the things I picked up were many but the two bigest are:
I need to push my 4/8 combo more prior to moving on to the 12 then 16K.
I Love the shaves off the 16K way more then the 8K. Sue me I'm spoiled.......
Paul
I did a similar experiment this week. Starting Saturday morning with no stropping. I ended up doing 5 shaves without stropping before the strops hanging there called my name. The shave was still OK but more skin irritation. I then did 25 on the fire hose and 25 on the Latigo, smoother.Quote:
Originally Posted by fragalot
I think that I am different than most here because I shave because I have to not because I want to. Keep that in mind with my next theory. If I get a 7 day set and shave with each 4 times, I should only have to strop about once a month! ;)
Tim
I am getting more that you have to compete one step before moving on. If you don't have a good 4k the 8k isn't going to work well. I don't see any posts that say that the 8k is the perfect edge but most say it is good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Str8Shooter
I think that maybe the terminology is misleading. For example 'finishing stone". You can finish on a 1k if you want. I think they should be called refining steps. I say steps because I would include pastes, strops, etc.
The edge is set at the 4k level. [I am open for arguments about 1k!] Where you choose to stop refining and "finish" that edge is your choice.
Although it can be better the 8k is not a bad place to stop.
Tim
After shaving off the Norton every day for two weeks, I revisited a nice 30k edge using my FON Golden Star, just to check how it felt after getting used to the Norton.
And it sure was nicer, no doubt about that, but it's not a world of difference, I have no problem going back to the 8k tomorrow. :)
Just to try something different, I started JaNorton with one of my razors (WM Elliott) finished on the 8k side with lather. I didn't notice any benefit to the edge and it actually seemed to slow the stone down quite a bit (I did my normal finishing routine and It needed about 2.5 times as many laps on the lather to get it where I wanted it).Quote:
Originally Posted by georgephillips
As with all things, opinions differ. I don't like the shave edge off my 8K. Can I shave with it? Sure. Do I want to when I can push MUCH better with a higher stone? Hell No!!!! I can drive with my feet but that does not make it a good idea. for me I much prefer the edge I get off the 16K shapton.Quote:
Originally Posted by 32t
That being said I believe my edge's are better now that 8Kpush my 8k farther then I used to. Some razors i bevel set on the 1K, some on the 4K. Some even on 220!!!! It all depends on the razor.
To each his own, but are you sure you pushed the 8k edge as far has it will go is my question!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Str8Shooter