Thread: narrow hone for smiley?

I want to get this straight: do you need a hone narrower than 3" in order to properly maintain a smile?

No. But you don't need a wide one either, and the narrow hones (like a barber's hone) are less cumbersome to use. Once you've got a smile, the width of the hone doesn't matter -- I once de-nicked a smiling blade using one of those little triangular pocket hones that was only about 2/3 of an inch wide. This left a quarter inch black stripe of swarf down the middle of the hone but the rest of it was clean.

One of my favorite barber's hones is only 1.25" wide, so I've developed a real fondness for smiling blades.

In my experience a wide hone tends to overhone the mid section of the edge and underhone the toe and heel of a smiley razor. Just look at the pattern of the water on the hone immediately after finishing one pass straight up and down the hone. You'll notice the water in the mid section of the hone to be sweeped away, while the layer of water along the edges of the stone will be slightly deeper. The wider the hone the more likely you overhone the midsection, although with a good technique I guess hone size does not matter.

Originally Posted by Kees

You'll notice the water in the mid section of the hone to be sweeped away, while the layer of water along the edges of the stone will be slightly deeper.

I think this is an illusion because the water has partially filled in the area at the start of the stroke, and if you're using the X stroke the toe of the blade ends up in the middle of the hone so you'd expect the top of the hone to be untouched. Also, most smiling blades that I have seen don't have an even curve, usually the middle of the blade is relatively straighter than the ends, so it's more likely to sweep a wider swath of water.

When I hone my smiling blades on the norton or shapton I see the pattern you're talking about, but when I hone them on something more viscous like lather or oil the track looks relatively even. The blades with flat bellies leave a wider swath in the middle of the hone as expected, and the blades with flatter heels (the smile looks more like an airfoil) leave a wider swath at the near side of the hone.

You can hone a "smiley" edge with either one but the narrow hones makes it easier to achieve a uniform level of wear.
My main point is that each of us has to learn to use the tools that we have and not go out and purchase every hone under the sun thinking that the next hone will be the be all/ end all and solve all of the honing challenges we face.

Yes, I do have a very large collection of hones and some are better than others for certain tasks but in each case I have had to learn how to use each tool.

Just my two cents,

Thanks Randy. I have one big hone and am not looking to acquire anymore unless it's really needed - I'm not a collector. Minimalism is my muse and economy is my reality. I want to understand all this razor paraphernalia – not own it.

But here I guess I'm just looking for general advice on how to maintain a smiley. In the pdf of the Swaty instructions it talks about putting pressure at the beginning and end of the x-pattern, going light in the middle. Makes sense; hard to do effectively though on a 3" hone.

And then I've heard talk about 'rocking,' which I just plain don't understand. If you lift or rotate a razor on an axis perpendicular to your hone while honing, such that the razor edge and spine aren't flat on the face of it, then by definition the razor will at every moment during that movement only be touching the bevelled edge of one side of your hone or another. No? I must be missing something, unless that's the point of rocking – to sharpen your razor along the bevelled edges of your hone.

Originally Posted by randydance062449

My main point is that each of us has to learn to use the tools that we have and not go out and purchase every hone under the sun thinking that the next hone will be the be all/ end all and solve all of the honing challenges we face.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. The non plus ultra hone does not exist. It's more often the user than the equipment that is the problem, presuming of course you have good equipment.

Originally Posted by dylandog

And then I've heard talk about 'rocking,' which I just plain don't understand. If you lift or rotate a razor on an axis perpendicular to your hone while honing, such that the razor edge and spine aren't flat on the face of it, then by definition the razor will at every moment during that movement only be touching the bevelled edge of one side of your hone or another. No? I must be missing something, unless that's the point of rocking – to sharpen your razor along the bevelled edges of your hone.

Yes, you're missing something: If the razor is smiling, then only one point of the edge will touch the hone at any given time. By tilting the blade, you change which point of that edge will touch the hone. If you smoothly rock a smiler as you go down the hone, then (for example) the point of contact will start at the heel and move up to the toe, and a different part of the blade will contact the surface of the hone the entire way down the hone.

When I do this on my smiling 8/8 W&B frameback, the razor leaves a pencil-thin black swarf trail that starts at the edge of the hone where the heel touches at the beginning of the stroke, then arcs out and across the hone to the other side where the toe touches at the end of the stroke. A full pass leaves a black 'X' on my hone from the metal swarf. If I do the X pattern then I get the same result only it's confined to the near side of the hone because the toe winds up near the middle of the hone by the time the blade rocks around to it -- this is why you can hone a smiling blade on a narrow hone.

With some practice you can hone a smiling blade on a very narrow hone indeed. I once denicked a smiling blade on a little field-style pocketknife hone that was maybe 3/4" wide, when I was done there was a very wide and very short X mark across the top of the hone.

Mparker, is rocking in essence quite similar to "putting pressure at the beginning and end of the x-pattern, going light in the middle," the focus of said pressure moving from heel to toe as you move down the hone?

If so, does the blade 'flex' during this movement?

Originally Posted by dylandog

Mparker, is rocking in essence quite similar to "putting pressure at the beginning and end of the x-pattern, going light in the middle," the focus of said pressure moving from heel to toe as you move down the hone?

No. Those directions from Swaty will *create* a smiling edge, or at least help prevent you from creating a frowning edge. On a narrow hone like the swaty, you have to be careful of overhoning the middle, because the toe and heel are only on the hone for part of the stroke but the middle of the blade is on the hone the entire stroke. But you can't create a really sharp edge if you're using much pressure, so I suspect the swaty directions meant to use pressure on the heel and toe for the first few laps, then use even light pressure the next few to get the keen edge. Some barber's manuals recommend honing the heel, toe, and middle separately to avoid overhoning the middle. But once you've got the smiling edge then you just use even pressure and a smooth rocking motion.

Originally Posted by dylandog

If so, does the blade 'flex' during this movement?

A fully hollowed blade can flex during the movement described by swaty if you're using a lot of pressure, though if it's flexing very much then you're probably using too much pressure. If you're honing a smiling blade with the rock-and-roll technique then it shouldn't flex -- you should use even light pressure through the entire stroke in order to get a keen edge all the way around.