Thread: Experienced sharpener, new to razors

He called it a natural japanese whetstone. He said that they are very hard and cut knives slow, but that they are especially good for finishing razors and similar blades. Do you guys know about these kinds of stones? Do you have an opinion? My friend goes to Japan on business every month or two and he said he could pick one up for me. He showed me a picture online of one, but it was all in Japanese and I couldn't really read it. I'll ask him if he has any more information on it.

Most of us recommend new honers to learn finishing on synthetics like a Naniwa 12K, but it wouldn't hurt to pick up a natural finisher that's suitable for razors if you have the spare funds considering your buddy frequents Japan. I have a nakayama asagi that is a good finisher, but I only use certain razor's on it.

Sharpening razors is just kind of the grad school of sharpening. It's two factors converging, the need for extreme sharpening, off-set by the hurdle that you can't apply any pressure. It's easy to keep a knife on a hone because, well, it's a friggen knife! Like an axe, it relishes the "mistakes".

A straight razor is closer in condition to a piece of aluminum foil, than an axe.

The key to a straight razor is that sharpness is essential, just like a knife, followed by smoothness, to clear bevel imperfections (it's riding along your face after all), then a final stage of balanced perfection. This step takes the blade to its optimum, for whatever the steel in question can handle.

To achieve this we do a myriad of tricks from pyramids to shank lifting, to x patterns, to positioning scales at the optimum angle; all with one goal--- to hone with the least amount of action.

WHY?

Let's say that I can get to sharpness in three ways . . . One pass on a 4 k stone, or 80 passes on an 8 k stone, or even better, 140 passes on an 8 k stone using an x pattern and no pressure. The latter is preferred because somewhere along the progression, it could be the 118th pass, or it could be the 120th, you'll take the razor to its optimum. And you'll need to STOP!

Now, simply for understanding, if you followed the first method you'd be honing the equivilant of 80 laps, with each pass. So you'd never actually get to razor sharp. You'd be forever stuck at really awesome knife sharpness, which is pretty simple stuff.

The challenge is in being able to read the straight razor as you move up, because it's a new level of sharpness for you. Study up on razor sharpness tests. You've got to know when you are progressing, because often you aren't. Your just honing with no progress because you are already past shaving perfection or using too much action per stroke

But, it won't take long if you understand and accept the premise.

It's also helpful to see and shave with an actual straight razor, from someone genuinely proficient. You've probably seen guys who CAN shave with a knife. It's almost impossible to convince them that "they don't got it yet".

Stropping is a little different too, for the same reasoning. It's more delicate than people realize. Even moderate pressure can break the edge and make it feel dull. We erroneously call this "rolling" the edge. Sad because the edge isn't rolling at all, and guys that realize this think pressure might be okay, because their edge isn't "rolled" at all. But look in a microscope carefully and you'll see tny breaks in the edge, from a strop! Once you start seeing how much damage a strop can do, you'll start having more respect for the hone. I once discovered the I was having trouble with honing because when I turned the razor over on its spine on the hone I was letting the edge down back to the hone under SOME of its own weight --- and the edge was getting shattered on impact!

So, learn about sharpness tests, remember that knife honing skills are essential in the beginning, and open your mind up to knew (CRAZY) ideas toward the end of honing. Learn how to commit a perfect stroke on a hone, and remember that the difference between a dull shaving razor and a sharp shaving one is only about 6 strokes on a very high grit hone using no pressure at all.

Sent by iPad so please forgive typos

Oh man, thank you so much for taking the time to write that AFDavis11! That is really helpful and I am very grateful indeed for the insights. On the one hand, I know that you need to ease off the pressure after re-profiling a knife. But I had no idea that it is possible to damage the cutting edge just from letting the blade down onto the stone too fast. The fact that you can damage the cutting edge on a strop is also something that I had no category for. This stuff is super useful and I now really want to try it out.

The razor that I got was my dad's, and he kept it in really good shape. He taught me a lot about sharpening knives, but he never talked much about how to hone a razor. I'm not even certain that he did his own honing. But the razor he gave me is in really good shave ready condition at the moment, so I don't forsee having to take it to the stone any time soon. I do love sharpening though and I love a new challenge. I may just have to indulge myself with a new razor from the classifieds or something like that. I feel that I am definitely a candidate for the so-called RAD that I keep seeing in these forums, haha.

Thanks to everyone else who posted on this thread as well! I have been learning quite a bit since I started this, and I am very appreciative to you all. I'll hopefully have some good news to report when I finally get to try some of this stuff out on a razor.

Very good advice here! The only thing I can add is that make sure you lap your stones nice and flat before sharpening razors. I don't know what you are using for lapping, but a 325 DMT or 400 wet/dry sandpaper finish is about perfect for razor honing. Anything less will leave the stone a bit scratchy, and that could make things a bit more difficult at first.

Keep us posted on your progress!

How funny, I planned to get on and post about my progress and here is Brooksie asking me to do that very thing. He must have read my mind! Speaking of Brooksie, I checked out your thing on strops and compounds. Very cool and helpful. All of the stuff you guys posted was very educational and helpful and I thank you all!

To give you an update, here is the razor that I got from ebay to work on: It appears to be called "Barber's Choice", but I'm actually not sure. It also says "Made in Germany" and "Biddle Hardware". The razor itself appears to be a pretty basic model from a long time ago. I am not good at guessing just how old, but the box looks like it came from the dark ages. The blade itself had a bit of rust and some spots of corrosion. It looked like the perfect razor to take a chance on especially considering the price of $10. When I got it, the bevel had some visible rust on it, but it seemed to clean up pretty well. The razor was definitely not "shave ready" or anywhere close. It wouldn't cut hairs on my arms at all, so it was obviously quite dull and in need of some good sharpening.

I tried uploading a couple of pictures from the auction itself, but I'm new to this site so I guess we'll see. I can't seem to find my camera, so these before pictures will have to do for now. Anyway, if the pictures do show up, you should be able to get a decent idea of the razor and the shape it was in.

I have a headset magnifying glass type thing that I used to check out the blade close up. I get x30 magnification which is decent, but not as good as a microscope. With it I was able to see that the basic shape of the blade seemed ok. It was also clear that whomever it was that was sharpening it before would lay the blade on the stone without tape because the spine was a bit worn. Since the bevel was clearly rusted, I started to sharpen on my 1k king Japanese water stone. I used the circular pattern that someone from this site recommended. I believe his name was Lynn? Anyway, he had a youtube video that I watched and I tried to stick to the technique he was using. I didn't have the blade on the 1k stone for too long before I had the rust off. I also was able to see that I had established a clean bevel of my own, so I moved on...

(On a side note, I noticed that there was one small pit of corrosion on the blade that was a bit too deep to work out. Well, I suppose I could have worked it out, but it would mean removing at least one mm of metal from the entire edge of the blade. I decided to just leave it because it wasn't very wide. I'm not sure if I should try to get it out later or not.)

As I moved through my 8k stone, I wasn't sure that I'd be able to get this thing to a place where it could actually shave my face. Although it was getting sharper, it seemed to have quite a few miles on it and the small corrosion pit was nagging in my mind. I followed your advice about the strops and compounds though Brooksie and I am really glad that I did! I started with a diamond paste on cotton and then moved on to chromium oxide on smooth leather. After that, the razor was already able to easily shave hairs on my arm and I was starting to get optimistic. I did 50 round trips on smooth leather with jeweler's rouge. I'm not sure of the chemical makeup of the jeweler's rouge that I have, but it must be finer than the chromium oxide based on previous sharpening projects. After that I did my regular daily stropping sequence on leather with no compounds and gave it a try...

I'll be damned if the thing actually worked! I won't call it better than my dad's Dovo razor that he gave me. Actually, it was probably a small step below the Dovo. But I fully expected it to be well below the Dovo and I wasn't even sure if I'd get it to shave properly at all. Instead, I completed an entire shave with no ill effect! To say that I am pleasantly surprised is a huge understatement. I am VERY excited that I was able to get that thing up and running, and I have you all to thank for that. I really cannot exaggerate how useful all of the information I got here was. I will certainly be looking to further refine my skills, but so far I am quite pleased. I suppose that maybe this "Barber's Choice" razor might have been better than I thought. Or maybe I just got really lucky my first time out. But I believe that the advice I was given was top notch and I am very grateful to you all. I fully expected my first few razor sharpening projects to be trial and error with a fair amount of error. I still believe that errors are going to come. But for now I'm very pleased with the result. So thanks again. I will certainly be interested to try this again when I get my new sharpening stone from Japan.

Awesome! Many have a hard time combining the skill sets. Once you are comfortable setting bevels and getting sharpness you can focus on razor/stone honing. It will take some time to get passed using strops and paste (and it's not required that you ever do), but keep at it and a stone alone will work just as well.

Keep studying, there is a big learning curve.

Good on ya man!

I'm just curious, how big is this pit? When viewed under magnification is it right at the edge of the blade? If so, it might be cause for concern.

When setting your bevel on your 1k stone, you shouldn't move on from your 1k until it will pop arm hairs from the heel to the toe of the blade at ease. Not sure if that's what you did but that's what everyone recommends. Also, when viewing your bevel under 30X magnification there should be a clear and defined straight line where the bevel is set.

I'm also interested in your stropping progression. What grit diamond paste was used? Also, jewelers rouge is usually Cerium Oxide, a fine white powder either on its own or bonded with a non-abrasive material much like what they use to bond CrOx together.

As far as your razor goes, without the knowledge of who owned the trademark 'barbers choice' it's hard to say who manufactured it. Typically, and you'll see this a lot, a barber or hardware store would order razors from manufacturer to sell in their stores.

There is actually a thread here about them already located at http://straightrazorpalace.com/razor...rdware-co.html

Looks to be the same razor that you've got. Acording to GOINS' the company was located on Commece st, Philadelphia and existed 1837-1920. Abt 1920 it became Supplee-Biddle Hardward co.
They, of course, were wholesale/retail and they did not make any knives or razors.

That's about all I can find on it. Maybe Martin has something more to ad.

Either way, enjoy the shaves and maintaining your steel!

According to the taylors1000.com website located here: Full A to Z list of Razor Manufacturers & their Dates of Operations

ALEXANDER COPPEL CUTLERY CO
Solingen; had an importing office in New York City
Used "STOLL RAZOR" trademark. Knives & Razors
"Barbers Choice"
ca. 1821 - present

Alcoso was fouded by Alexander Coppel in 1821. The company is mostly known for the (ceremonial) swords, daggers, bayonets, and the like they made for both the British and later on the nazis (after the jewish Coppels were expelled from the firm). But they made all sorts of cutlery and even bicycle parts. Alcoso went out of business somewhere in the fifties, but was restarted in the late nineties. They now specialize in pet care products and professional scissors, but also took over Otto Busch and hold the Weltmeister brand.

Alexander Coppel registered the business, which he inherited from his father Arnold Coppel, in 1862.

The company which was the third largest in Solingen employed 160 workers. The company made cutlery and tableware but concentrated on edged weapons from the mid 1860s. They made swords, bayonets and daggers for a number of countries including Great Britain, the German states, Belgium and the Netherlands. Towards the end of the nineteenth century they supplied the Turkish and South American markets.

They were a leading supplier during the First World War to the German forces. After the war, the company switched back to cutlery manufacture as well as making razors, scissors and hair clippers.

During the Weimar period, they made police and private purchase walking out bayonets.

The company’s Jewish background prevented them selling daggers to the SA and SS but they did produce swords and daggers for the German armed forces.

In 1936, the company was “Aryanised” and continued to produce the same wide range of products including large numbers of bayonets for the German armed forces.

Their factory was destroyed by bombing in November 1944 and the company was
officially liquidated in July 1956.

Information from “The Sword and Knife Makers of Germany 1850-2000” by Anthony Carter.

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...rk-I.D.-Part-2