Thread: What exactly is Feedback?

Something that I failed to mention is the negative feedback from grit on your finishing stones. If I feel grit on the stone through the razor I begin to feel a little sick and stop immediately. I go and rinse the stone under the tap and the razor too. Feeling these negative things on polishing stones is important because they could ruin all your hard work!

Originally Posted by Martin103

Some naturals, after being slurried have a very distinct smell, for example the earthy smell of a coticule, the escher/thuri as well.

Touché.

While I suppose this is a feedback of sorts from the stone...is it useful or necessary, or simply an observation? (honest question, as I have not used these types of stones/hones).

In honesty, I have noted smells during grinding (even by hand on hones) that involved removal of significant (carbon) steel. I have never used this observation as any sort of guidance or feedback...just a realization, and a thought of "wow"

In the world of knives, I guess I would have to claim to have used smell as feedback. Carbon steel often has a slight "rusty" smell to it that I have used to differentiate it from stainless steels...but it only works with fairly aged or worn pieces. Hard to celebrate this too much though because there is usually an accompanying patina or bloom that can be identified on sight.

When I use the term "feedback", in the context of honing, it refers to the feel of the razor on the stone.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

When you talk feedback in a sound system that is a specific thing and in fact is an engineering term and it can be defined and studied and seen on test instruments and acoustic engineers can quantify that. However with many other things it's just a term with no real definition except in the mind of the individual.

This appears to be the overwhelming response. For a term that is thrown about so much you'd think there'd be a clearer definition of it.

Originally Posted by unit

...I have even heard some talk about taste as a sense that gets used (dull blades taste like steel, and sharp ones taste like blood )
...

Originally Posted by HNSB

When I use the term "feedback", in the context of honing, it refers to the feel of the razor on the stone.

It appears that feedback is the collective body of evidence gathered through the honing process to determine the effectiveness of the honing work. It may consist of sight, feel, sound, (taste,) and/or performance in various tests (TNT, TPT, HHT, etc.)

Anybody want to add to the wiki?

I use Nortons (1-8k) and Barbers (Swaty & Keen Kutter) for my honing. Maybe someday I'll get a "real" finisher, but I obtain satisfactory results with these stones. The Nortons definitely have a different feel than the Barbers, and the Barbers have different feels from each other and coarse vs. smooth sides. But when you read/hear about someone doing rolling X's until they get good feedback--unless that term is previously defined--the ambiguity makes the comment less than helpful.

Thanks for the replies guys,
Jim

For me it was something I knew when it happened. For a long time I wondered the same thing. Then one day as my balance, pressure, draw, and steady handedness improved I felt what everyone was talking about. It was a constant almost suction type feel of the blade to the stone. I could feel the stone give even resistance on the blade throughout my entire stroke. I have only felt it on my Naniwas. I am going to try my Nortons today and see what the feedback feels like from them. Anyway for me it was something that just happened after practicing and experience.

Originally Posted by ccase39

For me it was something I knew when it happened. For a long time I wondered the same thing. Then one day as my balance, pressure, draw, and steady handedness improved I felt what everyone was talking about. It was a constant almost suction type feel of the blade to the stone. I could feel the stone give even resistance on the blade throughout my entire stroke. I have only felt it on my Naniwas. I am going to try my Nortons today and see what the feedback feels like from them. Anyway for me it was something that just happened after practicing and experience.

That's how it happened with me also. I use Shapton glass. Same as with the draw and noise of stropping, I translated it to honing ( noise in only during bevel setting). Double O

Originally Posted by ccase39

For me it was something I knew when it happened. For a long time I wondered the same thing. Then one day as my balance, pressure, draw, and steady handedness improved I felt what everyone was talking about. It was a constant almost suction type feel of the blade to the stone. I could feel the stone give even resistance on the blade throughout my entire stroke. I have only felt it on my Naniwas. I am going to try my Nortons today and see what the feedback feels like from them. Anyway for me it was something that just happened after practicing and experience.

I was finishing a razor on my Zulu yesterday, and I got some incredible feedback from the stone. I began with a milky slurry & did 20 or so x-strokes, then diluted, and repeated the process. Then, after my 4th or 5th dilution (by dipping the blade in water), I started getting a pronounced resistance that I can only describe as "stiction" to the stone. This, to me, was the stone letting me know that the razor was ready to be stropped.

And the stone was right!! I got a perfect HHT right off the stone (before stropping) and the subsequent shave was amazing. So yeah, this feedback phenomenon really is the stone communicating to you..

Originally Posted by BigJim

It appears that feedback is the collective body of evidence gathered through the honing process to determine the effectiveness of the honing work. It may consist of sight, feel, sound, (taste,) and/or performance in various tests (TNT, TPT, HHT, etc.)

The problem is, I think, that the term has never really been defined formally. This thread is probably the closest thing as there is to a "definition".
I'll continue to use the term the way I use it, since my use is the one that's correct.

Originally Posted by Martin103

For example the feedback while honing on Shapton is very good, feels like the razor is stuck to the stone once it reach its max potential on one stone, then move to a finer stone till that suction shows up again. Sound is a big part as well you get to know what sound comes for a particular stone, if it doesnt sound right something is out of wack, maybe more water or lapping or you moved from one stone to the other to fast, all part of feedback to acheive your goal.
Another good feedback is watching the water in front of the blade while honing, it will definately point out if there is dirt on your stone or grit.

There also feedback on ebay!

I think you're referring to stiction: the friction which tends to prevent stationary surfaces from being set in motion? And is quite noticeable on my Ozuku when the potential of the stone is achieved. If I try to push it too far I risk the blade 'skipping' due to the desire of the blade to stay where it is.

Originally Posted by HNSB

The problem is, I think, that the term has never really been defined formally. This thread is probably the closest thing as there is to a "definition".
I'll continue to use the term the way I use it, since my use is the one that's correct.

I would like permission to suggest that this is not feedback, at least in the honing sense. The hone provides feedback suggesting that it is sharpening the blade, or that the blade is in fact sharp. Tests provide sensation, or a reaction, or a sound that indicates the condition of the blade. The razor is not getting sharper and providing feedback in the moment, it is providing information post action.