Thread: What exactly is Feedback?

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

When you talk feedback in a sound system that is a specific thing and in fact is an engineering term and it can be defined and studied and seen on test instruments and acoustic engineers can quantify that. However with many other things it's just a term with no real definition except in the mind of the individual.

This appears to be the overwhelming response. For a term that is thrown about so much you'd think there'd be a clearer definition of it.

Originally Posted by unit

...I have even heard some talk about taste as a sense that gets used (dull blades taste like steel, and sharp ones taste like blood )
...

Originally Posted by HNSB

When I use the term "feedback", in the context of honing, it refers to the feel of the razor on the stone.

It appears that feedback is the collective body of evidence gathered through the honing process to determine the effectiveness of the honing work. It may consist of sight, feel, sound, (taste,) and/or performance in various tests (TNT, TPT, HHT, etc.)

Anybody want to add to the wiki?

I use Nortons (1-8k) and Barbers (Swaty & Keen Kutter) for my honing. Maybe someday I'll get a "real" finisher, but I obtain satisfactory results with these stones. The Nortons definitely have a different feel than the Barbers, and the Barbers have different feels from each other and coarse vs. smooth sides. But when you read/hear about someone doing rolling X's until they get good feedback--unless that term is previously defined--the ambiguity makes the comment less than helpful.

Thanks for the replies guys,
Jim

For me it was something I knew when it happened. For a long time I wondered the same thing. Then one day as my balance, pressure, draw, and steady handedness improved I felt what everyone was talking about. It was a constant almost suction type feel of the blade to the stone. I could feel the stone give even resistance on the blade throughout my entire stroke. I have only felt it on my Naniwas. I am going to try my Nortons today and see what the feedback feels like from them. Anyway for me it was something that just happened after practicing and experience.

Originally Posted by ccase39

For me it was something I knew when it happened. For a long time I wondered the same thing. Then one day as my balance, pressure, draw, and steady handedness improved I felt what everyone was talking about. It was a constant almost suction type feel of the blade to the stone. I could feel the stone give even resistance on the blade throughout my entire stroke. I have only felt it on my Naniwas. I am going to try my Nortons today and see what the feedback feels like from them. Anyway for me it was something that just happened after practicing and experience.

I was finishing a razor on my Zulu yesterday, and I got some incredible feedback from the stone. I began with a milky slurry & did 20 or so x-strokes, then diluted, and repeated the process. Then, after my 4th or 5th dilution (by dipping the blade in water), I started getting a pronounced resistance that I can only describe as "stiction" to the stone. This, to me, was the stone letting me know that the razor was ready to be stropped.

And the stone was right!! I got a perfect HHT right off the stone (before stropping) and the subsequent shave was amazing. So yeah, this feedback phenomenon really is the stone communicating to you..

Originally Posted by BigJim

It appears that feedback is the collective body of evidence gathered through the honing process to determine the effectiveness of the honing work. It may consist of sight, feel, sound, (taste,) and/or performance in various tests (TNT, TPT, HHT, etc.)

The problem is, I think, that the term has never really been defined formally. This thread is probably the closest thing as there is to a "definition".
I'll continue to use the term the way I use it, since my use is the one that's correct.

Originally Posted by HNSB

The problem is, I think, that the term has never really been defined formally. This thread is probably the closest thing as there is to a "definition".
I'll continue to use the term the way I use it, since my use is the one that's correct.

I would like permission to suggest that this is not feedback, at least in the honing sense. The hone provides feedback suggesting that it is sharpening the blade, or that the blade is in fact sharp. Tests provide sensation, or a reaction, or a sound that indicates the condition of the blade. The razor is not getting sharper and providing feedback in the moment, it is providing information post action.

This thread is feedback on feedback about feedback. The information you get from input. If I put too much pressure on a blade going across the hone I get negative feedback. If I do it right I get positive feedback. Smooth is the feedback I am looking for and anything that eventually gets me there is the feedback I try to repeat. If I feel a bump there is a hair or grain on the stone and it needs to be cleaned. If I hear scratching it should decrease as I continue with laps. Anything short of that is telling me something is wrong.

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

I would like permission to suggest that this is not feedback, at least in the honing sense. The hone provides feedback suggesting that it is sharpening the blade, or that the blade is in fact sharp. Tests provide sensation, or a reaction, or a sound that indicates the condition of the blade. The razor is not getting sharper and providing feedback in the moment, it is providing information post action.

Close. I'd say feedback is the observation of the result of an action, by the originator of that action.

Audio output getting fed back in an amplifier is feedback.
Doing a survey of customer satisfaction is feedback.
The feeling of a razor moving over a stone is feedback.

Originally Posted by BigJim

. But when you read/hear about someone doing rolling X's until they get good feedback--unless that term is previously defined--the ambiguity makes the comment less than helpful.

And yet I know exactly what they mean from the term, it is all the same, even with the Feedback from your Stereo, most here understand exactly what you mean because we have experienced it.. But try and explain audio feedback to a person that has never listened to amplified music using only the typed word and I bet it will be a good bit of a chore

Experience is all relative, one you experience good feedback, be it Tactile, Visiual, Audio, -vs- bad feedback you will no longer question the term it will be as obvious to you as the Stereo Feedback...

Bruno nailed the Technical definition, it is the

"Observation of the honing Action through any of the 5 senses"..

Speaking of, I have no more razors that need honing. I have dulled and honed all 14 of them several times I don't want to risk over honing and frown it or something. Its a shame because it was just recently I experienced feedback and I would like to practice more.

Originally Posted by ccase39

Speaking of, I have no more razors that need honing. I have dulled and honed all 14 of them several times I don't want to risk over honing and frown it or something. Its a shame because it was just recently I experienced feedback and I would like to practice more.

Hah, that sounds way too familiar.
My poor collection was subject to massive exagerations hone-wise for the longest time