Thread: Beginning to get why honemeisters charge extra for wedges...

Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Are drop dead perfect pro honers on this site that charge $15 a blade,most take 15 mins to do,JMO,granted some may take a bit more.

Wow - that would be a dream come true! If only I hadn't got a cup of coffee in my hand when I read Pixelfixed's wierd post and laughed my head off - now I have to clean up the desk. You should see the majority of razors I get sent. Some want the last rites, not honing.

Regards,
Neil

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

Wow - that would be a dream come true! If only I hadn't got a cup of coffee in my hand when I read Pixelfixed's wierd post and laughed my head off - now I have to clean up the desk. You should see the majority of razors I get sent. Some want the last rites, not honing.

Regards,
Neil

Not talking wedges,Or blades with issues, or resto work here guys.

I dunno, a modern wedge which to me is just a heavy grind hollow may not be too bad to hone. Anything that is a near wedge grind from the likes of W&B from 100 years ago or more with lots of hone wear is a recipe for frustration for a newbie. That is if they are mostly like the only one I own, still can't stand the sight of that razor. Spent a lot of time on it and still not 100% happy with it.

Bob

Originally Posted by BobH

I dunno, a modern wedge which to me is just a heavy grind hollow may not be too bad to hone. Anything that is a near wedge grind from the likes of W&B from 100 years ago or more with lots of hone wear is a recipe for frustration for a newbie. That is if they are mostly like the only one I own, still can't stand the sight of that razor. Spent a lot of time on it and still not 100% happy with it.

Bob

Bob brings up a point here...

An NOS Heavy blade takes no longer to hone then any other razor, what kicks these sideways is the 100+ years of bad hone wear..

Now comes the conundrum that has bugged me for years.. WHY ???

These razors were shaving when their owners set them aside, they "Supposedly" were honing using much the same techniques that we use, so WHY when you start to hone with that worn out spine (Wish they knew about tape) does the bevel not match the spine wear ?????? Why do we have to drastically re-set the bevel to get the spine and bevel to match, or grind down the spine and have a huge wide bevel now ????

Think about the why, I haven't figured it out yet...

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Bob brings up a point here...

An NOS Heavy blade takes no longer to hone then any other razor, what kicks these sideways is the 100+ years of bad hone wear..

Now comes the conundrum that has bugged me for years.. WHY ???

These razors were shaving when their owners set them aside, they "Supposedly" were honing using much the same techniques that we use, so WHY when you start to hone with that worn out spine (Wish they knew about tape) does the bevel not match the spine wear ?????? Why do we have to drastically re-set the bevel to get the spine and bevel to match, or grind down the spine and have a huge wide bevel now ????

Think about the why, I haven't figured it out yet...

Might be due to the fact that we flatten our hones? I look at old hones that are dished out to the point that they look like a skateboard ramp, and wonder how anyone could have used that thing successfully.

To the OP, most of the instruction that is out there is done on razors in decent shape. This is meant to help teach new guys the fundamentals of honing so that they can learn with practice and become successful. The biggest problem is that many of the razors new guys take on are tough to hone razors even for experienced people. We have done videos on rolling X strokes and other techniques that try to provide alternatives to these tough razors but nothing takes away from the time and practice needed to be able to get some of these beasts shaving again. I have yet to see the person who can take a badly unevenly flattened razor where the spine wear and reflective bevel wear don't match on both sides be able to hone that razor up to shaving glory in 15 minutes no matter what technique they use. Sometimes these nasty razors can be quite frustrating even if you have honed thousands of razors and they can take hours and multiple sittings to produce a shaving edge.

So to me, this is the challenge. You can become more frustrated with a razor and at the end of the day maybe never get it where it needs to be or spend the time to eventually start producing good results consistently. I pretty much look at every one of these razors as a challenge and get a lot of satisfaction in getting each one of them to shave. That's easy for me to say now as it took years of frustration and time to get to this point and I have put many a razor away to come back to at a later time.

There is no perfect answer when it comings to honing razors. The razors are as different as each of us and our abilities in addition to all the available media and regiments out there. Personally, I think a lot of the old wedges made it to peoples drawers and storage trunks as a result of not being able to hone them and shave with them.

In any case, hang in there. The more you take on these kinds of razors the better you will get with all the honing you do.

Have fun.

Thanks guys for all the tips and encouragement, Ill be taking another stab at it this evening and most likely a chunk of time a night until I get this sucker done. Ill be sure to keep you guys posted on the progress and come back for help as needed.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Bob brings up a point here...

... Now comes the conundrum that has bugged me for years.. WHY ???

These razors were shaving when their owners set them aside, they "Supposedly" were honing using much the same techniques that we use, so WHY when you start to hone with that worn out spine (Wish they knew about tape) does the bevel not match the spine wear ?????? Why do we have to drastically re-set the bevel to get the spine and bevel to match, or grind down the spine and have a huge wide bevel now ????

Think about the why, I haven't figured it out yet...

That the spine wear and bevel wear do not match when you begin honing some of these old 'uns makes me wonder why, too. Theoretically, when placed on a dead-flat hone the wear patterns should match. It seems to me that there are a number of possibilities, or even combinations of them, such as:

1. Temper and Hardening faults
When restoring thick-spined old razors, it soon becomes evident that metal removal from the spine and tang is easier than from near the bevel, which leads me to suppose that either the physical dimensions of the razor or the way it was heat-treated have resulted in a higher hardness at the cutting edge than elsewhere. To get the same degree of hardness in the thickness of the spine and tang as in the thin ground part of the blade would have been quite a feat, and probably not do-able - the thin part would become too brittle. The way the heat treatments were carried out would play a part too - if dipped it is likely that the tang would remain softer. Presumably the harder steel (bevel) would resist the abrasiveness of the hone a bit better than the spine, giving that minor 'curved' or 'rolling' cross section through the bevel, similar to not changing tape on the spine often enough.

2. Changes in Honing Practice.
Some old manuscripts advise 'lifting' the back of the razor slightly when nearing the end of honing. I have seen a number of authors advise this, among them Stodart, and perhaps more famously Benjamin Kingsbury in his "Treatise" (1st edition 1797 and by 1821 in its 9th edition). Unlike Stodart, though, Kingsbury advocated raising the back of the razor for special applications only, such as for a beard of unusual strength and for very wide razors. Incidentally, Kingsbury also described the use of 'circles' while honing, first on one side, then on the other side of the razor - sound familiar...?! Kingsbury also advocates the practice of a cutler regrinding blades that have suffered injury to the bevel, and notes the consequent impact of the 'setting' pattern (ie honewear) along the back of the razor.

3. Use of the Pasted Strop
At one time these were advocated as all you needed to keep your razor in tip-top condition, making honing relatively redundant. Some of the more famous makers of these products and their accompanying pastes were Hamon Freres in France and Packwood in England and the USA. Some of the patented pastes were really quite abrasive, and Kingsbury notes that a distinctly rounded bevel edge could be produced by poor use - barbers at the time (pre 1800) were said to call such rounded bevels 'a fine round edge' and he argues, rightly so, that the edge should be flat. Most patented sharpening strops were in the form of thin flat (or cushioned) paddles - these could easily do the damage described above, so imagine how much more damage could be done with a longer pasted hanging strop, where the degree of 'sag' comes into play? As the edge becomes more rounded, it is necessary to allow a little more sag in the strop in order to get the tip of the bevel to contact the strop. This type of wear would not line up with hone wear. Allied with a softer temper along the spine, the spine leading on the strop and the pressure used by someone not expert in maintaining a razor could give rise to all manner of partial, rounded and secondary bevels.

4. Was The Razor Really Shaving When Put Away for Posterity
Whenever I see a razor that has evidently been put away, sometimes virtually unused, I wonder why. Could it not take and edge? Was the steel too hard or too soft? If virtually unabused, I suspect the worst. Obviously a good razor is/was a good tool, and would have been used over and over again, showing hone wear, regrinding to reflect changes in fashion and to compensate for damage and a fair amount of wear and tear that all carbon steel items exhibit. With a giant wedge-like chopper, used and abused to the point where it was no longer in fashion, could take the pasted strop no longer or was too costly to have reground, then yes, it must once have been a fine shaver. Or it would be in a more pristine condition.

I guess that there are many other things not considered here, like sleeves to protect the spine as were used with microtome razors, heat damage during careless regrinding, some complete novice attempting to perfect his own outlandish honing technique, etc, etc.

Regards,
Neil

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

That the spine wear and bevel wear do not match when you begin honing some of these old 'uns makes me wonder why, too. Theoretically, when placed on a dead-flat hone the wear patterns should match. It seems to me that there are a number of possibilities, or even combinations of them, such as:

1. Temper and Hardening faults
When restoring thick-spined old razors, it soon becomes evident that metal removal from the spine and tang is easier than from near the bevel, which leads me to suppose that either the physical dimensions of the razor or the way it was heat-treated have resulted in a higher hardness at the cutting edge than elsewhere. To get the same degree of hardness in the thickness of the spine and tang as in the thin ground part of the blade would have been quite a feat, and probably not do-able - the thin part would become too brittle. The way the heat treatments were carried out would play a part too - if dipped it is likely that the tang would remain softer. Presumably the harder steel (bevel) would resist the abrasiveness of the hone a bit better than the spine, giving that minor 'curved' or 'rolling' cross section through the bevel, similar to not changing tape on the spine often enough.

2. Changes in Honing Practice.
Some old manuscripts advise 'lifting' the back of the razor slightly when nearing the end of honing. I have seen a number of authors advise this, among them Stodart, and perhaps more famously Benjamin Kingsbury in his "Treatise" (1st edition 1797 and by 1821 in its 9th edition). Unlike Stodart, though, Kingsbury advocated raising the back of the razor for special applications only, such as for a beard of unusual strength and for very wide razors. Incidentally, Kingsbury also described the use of 'circles' while honing, first on one side, then on the other side of the razor - sound familiar...?! Kingsbury also advocates the practice of a cutler regrinding blades that have suffered injury to the bevel, and notes the consequent impact of the 'setting' pattern (ie honewear) along the back of the razor.

3. Use of the Pasted Strop
At one time these were advocated as all you needed to keep your razor in tip-top condition, making honing relatively redundant. Some of the more famous makers of these products and their accompanying pastes were Hamon Freres in France and Packwood in England and the USA. Some of the patented pastes were really quite abrasive, and Kingsbury notes that a distinctly rounded bevel edge could be produced by poor use - barbers at the time (pre 1800) were said to call such rounded bevels 'a fine round edge' and he argues, rightly so, that the edge should be flat. Most patented sharpening strops were in the form of thin flat (or cushioned) paddles - these could easily do the damage described above, so imagine how much more damage could be done with a longer pasted hanging strop, where the degree of 'sag' comes into play? As the edge becomes more rounded, it is necessary to allow a little more sag in the strop in order to get the tip of the bevel to contact the strop. This type of wear would not line up with hone wear. Allied with a softer temper along the spine, the spine leading on the strop and the pressure used by someone not expert in maintaining a razor could give rise to all manner of partial, rounded and secondary bevels.

4. Was The Razor Really Shaving When Put Away for Posterity
Whenever I see a razor that has evidently been put away, sometimes virtually unused, I wonder why. Could it not take and edge? Was the steel too hard or too soft? If virtually unabused, I suspect the worst. Obviously a good razor is/was a good tool, and would have been used over and over again, showing hone wear, regrinding to reflect changes in fashion and to compensate for damage and a fair amount of wear and tear that all carbon steel items exhibit. With a giant wedge-like chopper, used and abused to the point where it was no longer in fashion, could take the pasted strop no longer or was too costly to have reground, then yes, it must once have been a fine shaver. Or it would be in a more pristine condition.

I guess that there are many other things not considered here, like sleeves to protect the spine as were used with microtome razors, heat damage during careless regrinding, some complete novice attempting to perfect his own outlandish honing technique, etc, etc.

Regards,
Neil

Just to add to what Neil said ... how many of you have bought a vintage hone that didn't need lapping?
I think hone abuse was probably partly to blame for this too. The fact that people either didn't know how to keep hones flat,
or just didn't care would be something that would severely impinge on their performance.

And how many were used for cutting up cardboard boxes! I know I had a wedge that was way off. It was definitely sharpened with the spine off the hone. I am glad those days are BEHIND me. I don't think I will ever buy another ebay special again. Well until I see another one I really like!