Thread: Frustrated with 1K bevel

Dear Gssixgun and Birnando-Thanx again! Although I don't understand about "tearing the belly" out of the blade, I DO understand about not flexing the blade and keeping the entire edge in contact with the stone, ensuring that the blade creates a small wave at all contact points on the stone. Went down to 220 for shits and grins. Although I have been doing 40 circles both directions , I will take your advice and do 20 circles with pressure both forwards and backwards, the same without pressure, and then 20 X strokes. Would straight strokes help also? I guess that I continue to do this at 1K until I can easily shave arm hair, and then perform the same series of strokes at 4K and 8K, letting the slurry dry up instead of keeping the hone wet? That is what I was doing, except for near the end at 8K, where you indicated on one of your videos to wipe off with the finger leaving the stone only slightly wet. Does too wet a stone affect its abrasive qualities? Also going to replane my 8K, as I think that it is slightly uneven and high on one side. Noticed that metal was coming off of the blade near the pivot point of the razor until I switched the stone around. Also, how long does it take for a DMT 320 to wear out? I do scrub it with a bristle brush after planing a stone, but it does have wear marks. Have not used the Norton Nagura simply because I have the DMT 320 and a small Nagura, exactly like used in some honing videos to build up slurry. Although I have sharpened a machete and my work knife using a file and a Hunter Honer respectively, honing a straight razor blade is an entirely different can of beans-each blade seems to be different in how it takes an edge and some blades are definitely easier to hone than others!-Gearhead

When you drop really low in grit or flex the blade it creates deep scratches above the honing bevel line, these in turn have to be honed out or they create a Harsh, Weak, Chippy, edge so you are basically adding work and losing steel ie: you tear out the belly of the blade so you have to re-create it

When you need to really do heavy lifting like that for Restoration get the angle up there so that you are only working the very edge, use at least 3 layers of tape or even a Knife style honing stroke with the spine up.. This easily keeps those deep scratches inside the bevel when you drop the angle, so that you can hone then out... Honestly this is RARE and only for really bad edge not simply dull blades.. Now you of course can do all this the hard way and hone to the bone if want

Basically the only real difference in using the 1k is you are adding that as the bevel set for dull blades so stay there until the Bevel is well and truely set. then when you move up the 4k becomes simply a sharpener, and you can get very light and smooth on it same as the 8k..

Some blades are harder to set the bevel on then others once the bevel is set they are all pretty easy

I think using the various tests for a new honer can be like "flying blind" for a new pilot. The way I evaluate a bevel and edge is to look at it under bright light and a 10X loupe (or naked eye if that is all you have now). The sides of the bevel should meet in an edge that does not reflect light at all. Until you get to that stage, you are just removing metal. Honing and removing metal are two different things.

Thanx again guys. Gssixgun, I realize that it's a touchy subject, but is electrical tape really required if the spine is significantly flattened? Seems to be such a volitile subject. Will try again tonight after work and start at 1K-John

Originally Posted by gearhead222

Thanx again guys. Gssixgun, I realize that it's a touchy subject, but is electrical tape really required if the spine is significantly flattened? Seems to be such a volitile subject. Will try again tonight after work and start at 1K-John

People make it what it is Tape is not Required nor is No Tape whatever you want is fine..

Read Jerry's post above see what he says about the tape wearing out ???? that is way easier to replace then steel

PFJI --

I take Ace's approach:

. . . Take a 10x loupe and a good light, and _look at the edge_ !

Without that feedback, you're literally "working blind" -- counting strokes, instead of _seeing_ the bevel surface smooth out.

. Charles

Again, many thanx guys! I have a 30X illuminated jewelers loupe, but don't know what to look for other than smiles, frowns, wire edges and flat spots! Yes, I was using the same piece of tape-did not realize that it must be changed! Then again, I have been honing w/o tape as I'm following one VERY senior members advice, most of the razors I'm working with are inexpensive and have flattened spines to begin with and I figured that it's one less thing to worry about. Will keep you all updated, as this is really chapping my butt!-Gearhead-PS-Dear ACE and cpcohen1945, if I understand both of you correctly, am I supposed to have an edge that is THIN as possible that does NOT reflect light? With this particular razor, the edge is at least 2mm wide on either side and is indeed shiny. Some of my razors shave fine and have only a visible edge on one side though.Please explain, as I am totally out in left field

Get some magic marker stuff on it, then you'll see....

Originally Posted by gearhead222

Again, many thanx guys! I have a 30X illuminated jewelers loupe, but don't know what to look for other than smiles, frowns, wire edges and flat spots! Yes, I was using the same piece of tape-did not realize that it must be changed! Then again, I have been honing w/o tape as I'm following one VERY senior members advice, most of the razors I'm working with are inexpensive and have flattened spines to begin with and I figured that it's one less thing to worry about. Will keep you all updated, as this is really chapping my butt!-Gearhead-PS-Dear ACE and cpcohen1945, if I understand both of you correctly, am I supposed to have an edge that is THIN as possible that does NOT reflect light? With this particular razor, the edge is at least 2mm wide on either side and is indeed shiny. Some of my razors shave fine and have only a visible edge on one side though.Please explain, as I am totally out in left field

The 2mm "edge" you are referring to is the bevel. That should reflect light and be shiny. Where the two bevels meet is the edge. It doesn't have to be "thin" but it should terminate in an edge so sharp that it won't reflect light. Light is reflected from flat or near-flat surfaces, not sharp ones. If you turn the razor edge up toward the light, and you see reflections, then either the edge needs work or the bevel is incomplete (that is, the bevels do not meet in a sharp edge). I think you were confusing edges with bevels. The bevel sides are what you create by honing. The edge is where both bevel sides meet. Ultimately, the edge is what you shave with. It has to be sharp. Whether the bevel sides are shiny is merely a matter of aesthetics, not efficiency.

Originally Posted by gearhead222

. . . -Dear ACE and cpcohen1945, if I understand both of you correctly, am I supposed to have an edge that is THIN as possible that does NOT reflect light? With this particular razor, the edge is at least 2mm wide on either side and is indeed shiny. Some of my razors shave fine and have only a visible edge on one side though.Please explain, as I am totally out in left field

Let's see if I can clarify:

What you have is two _bevel surfaces_. Where they meet -- that's the _edge_.

The width of the bevel surface is determined by the thickness of the blade, and the bevel angle. A 2mm bevel sounds kind of wide, but if the blade is thick (e.g., a near-wedge), it could happen.

You will always see light reflect off the bevel surface -- if well-honed, it will look like a slightly matte mirror. If you use CrOxide paste, you can get it nice and shiny. It doesn't determine the quality of the shave.

Go out into sunlight, put the sun at your back. Hold the blade with the edge up, facing you, and pointed toward the sun -- the spine will be away from the sun. Now, you're looking at the edge.

. . . If you see sunlight reflecting off the edge (not off the bevels sides), the razor isn't sharp.

You can do the same test with any point-source of light, but sunlight makes things pretty obvious. A dull edge glints in the sun; a sharp edge is invisible. When somebody talks about the edge "cutting light", he's talking about that test.

. Charles