It may be sharp... but is it smooth? 2 Different ball-games ya know :idea:Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnl
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It may be sharp... but is it smooth? 2 Different ball-games ya know :idea:Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnl
LikesBBS sixgun hones blades for a living i doubt he will ever send one to anyone else. i cant say he is fantastic because i haven't mailed him mine yet but once it needs honed i will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LikesBBS
seeing as a cat isnt running i would say its smooth as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by LikesBBS
Ez tiger, was all jokes.
Now, are the cats fat? Theirs a few other factors which need to be calculated here :)
I mean anyone could shave a cat that's 17 years old, 45 pounds and arthritic - see where I'm goin here??? ;)
i think his cats are fat like cant even make it to the food dish fat.Quote:
Originally Posted by LikesBBS
The boys in the safety razor forums feel that same way about Feathers and other ultra-sharp blades, that they shave more comfortably after the 1st or 2nd shave. Some even gently draw the edge through a piece of cork before the first shave to smooth it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by LikesBBS
I used to extend my honing progression all the way to 30K, but lately I've stopped at my 12K Naniwa SS and plain leather stropping and find those edges shave very well. My experience has been that some steels don't hold up well at 16K and 30K levels. I know that 16K and 30K edges should be sharper and perhaps more refined, but my results with 12k have been so good that I see no reason to go further.
From a beginners perspective and very little experience, I go up to a 12K Nani and finish on a Zulu Gray. That seems to give me and my honing technique more smoothness than stopping at the Nani 12K. As far as not feeling any tugging goes, I have never had a straight razor, DE blade or cart razor that I did not feel some very slight resistance to the stroke. I don't think you can eliminate that totally, close but no cigars. I try not to get too OCD about things and quit when it just works well enough.
Bob
I gave up straights...and just use clam shells now
Yeah, but what grit do you hone them to?Quote:
Originally Posted by nessmuck
I started honing with a King 1000 and a King 6000 to finish with, and was able to get several razors sharp and smooth with several lacking the smoothness that I wanted.
Then, after a few months, I bought the Norton 4000/8000 and improved my odds of honing to a very smooth and sharp edge.
Finally I sprung for set of Naniwa Super Stones. This consists of a 1000, 5000, and a 12,000.
I have gone back to the razors that left me wanting for smoothness and find that I can improve their smoothness to a acceptable degree and almost all of them come out really really nice.
As my hone collection grew so did my ability to hone. I should go back to the King 6,000 and see what my improved abilities would produce.
For me the magic grit numbers for a finisher has ranged from 6,000 to 12,000 with me not feeling like I need anything else.
There is a Secret Text of Sharpening like the Lost Sea Scrolls that you might get lucky enough to see some day. Aside from sharp straight razors it explains the origins of complex cultures and what happens after you die. If you stay around the forum there is a chance you might see a copy but you can never own one as they are Moderated. Good Luck.
I'm a stray cat.
Wake Up!!!!!, LikesBBS,,,,Wake Up!!!!,,,,it's just a bad dream son,,,,,,Quote:
Originally Posted by LikesBBS
Attachment 127606
You ever see Glen's cat? He hones a lot.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnl
:dropjaw::dropjaw::dropjaw::dropjaw:
OMG Rich that is not a cat that is a freaking Alien that is just wrong on so many levels
Mikawa Nagura progression ended with a light slurry of Narutaki Jizuya on a Otaniyama Asagi Kamisori is sharp enough for me!
Grits, dunno!
"LikeBBS" Did you get that....?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
I heard Kiita Japanese Natual stones are only $5000.00 Makes you want to shave with a disposable, right....
You should master the 1, 4, 8k stones. Norton is a good choice for a beginner. 1k, is the bevel setter, 4k for sharpening, and 8k for finishing. One you master those, Grasshopper, move onto a 12k. The Chinese phig, or poeples hone, the one at woodcraft.http://www.woodcraft.com/product/200...234-x-114.aspx
It's not a bad hone, It was my first higher grit and I liked the shaves I got off it. It works better with a little bit of slurry, dilute as you go, finish on water. It's affordable, an 8x3 is about 40.00, or you could grab the Naniwa 12k, or Chosera 10k, but they are a bit expensive unless your a Jnat afficiando, and don't mind blowing thousands on rocks.
Just remember you don't have to spend a ton of money, or buy fancy gear to get great shaves....Just try to enjoy the whole experience.
Although it is treated as such, honing isn't a dark art. It's simply a process. We all like to get hung up on the YMMV aspect when noobs ask these kinds of questions. I know I hit a brick wall when I started asking these kinds of questions much like LikeBBS has in this thread. I can honestly say that I know the place from which his question originated, and the frustration that answers like he's received can cause. That being said, I'll do my best to answer what he asked. Just bear in mind that what works for me won't necessarily work for you.
I use a Norton 1k to set bevels, then use Shapton GS series stones and take the edge out to 16k. After that, I finish on my Shuobudani or I use my dark blue Escher. This progression works for me 9 times out of 10.
Wow I think you just said YMMV :hmmm:Quote:
Originally Posted by myersn024
BTW the answer is actually in his hands already,, The Norton 1-4-8
I (and most everyone with experience) can produce a Comfortable shaving edge on those 99/100 times... the one being a possible bad blade..
Above that level (Naniwa 1,3,8 Shapton 1,4,8 etc: etc) is just icing on the cake and until it is just that, no amount of Money or Stone will help the edge, hence we call the icing "YMMV"
:p
I'm not a guru by any means, but my original setup was a Norton 4K/8K, plus a 12000 grit Chinese stone from a quarry in Guanxi province (sorry, can't remember where I got it). Norton sells a stone that enables you to create slurry (a milky watery-stone combination) on the 12K stone. I got a D8C made by the DMT company for lapping purposes. Lapping means making sure the surface of the stones stay flat after honing a razor.Quote:
Originally Posted by LikesBBS
Some months back I got some Shapton hones and I just fell in love with them. The set consists of a 500, 1K, 4K, 8K, and 16K. These are artificial stones rather than natural materials and I have been able to get more predictable results from them, which is what I think you are trying to ask about. You lap them after honing a razor like you do the natural stones.
It's hard to be more specific than that, because results are a function of the user's experience and the condition of the razor to be honed. Perhaps after my experience with the Shaptons I might get better results with my original setup.
I do think 12K and 16K are such fine grades that they probably do the same job.
Of course I did, but I tried to be nice about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
I couldn't agree more. No worthwhile amount of honing on a high grit stone is going to make up for a bevel that isn't set, and progressing past the 8k level prematurely is couter productive.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Basically all the OP needs to do is stop asking and instead get to honing.Quote:
Originally Posted by myersn024
Practice makes perfect. Once perfection has been achieved with the Nortons, then one can start thinking about greener pastures of the stone world if one so desires. Other wise it all becomes one expensive mistake, to correct.
I speculate that the reason he's asked the question in the first place was to try and decide which way to go with his next hone purchase. I know that was an decision that I agonized over for quite some time after getting my Nortons. It took quite a while to realize the truth behind Glen's statement about everything else being icing on the cake. But I'll take the analogy one step further and liken shaving with an 8k edge to eating uniced pound cake. Sure, it's good, but it could be so much better....Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
The JaNorton thread has tons of good reading also. Once you get great edges with the Nortons you can move on to the next level.
As most gentlemen here pointed out, sharp is not enough. Smoothness is as important as sharpness.
That's what I was thinking when I started HADing. "Find the best, sharpest stone, and here you are". But somewhere along the way I noticed, there are plenty of old, and new, British slates, Jnats and others, that can give you that made-up legendary HHT6★ (6★, that is, if you blink at the hair and then look at the razor, the hair splits itself, spilling hair guts everywhere). But they were not smooth.
You can't enjoy a shave if it feels like you are sanding your face, even if it passes every test that exists for testing a sharp edge. Everybody prefers the edge that is so smooth, it seems like it doesn't even touch your face.
You have to try both of them to tell the difference. And, that smoothness part, like it's "grit", depends from stone to stone. Some are fine and smooth. Others, aren't. Personally, I think that, the sharper the edge-finer the stone, the harsher it will possibly be. There are always exceptions, but that's what I generally think for finishers.
So, if you are looking for a fine stone, go for a smooth natural, or, well, since I don't have experience with man made stones, listen to what the guys that have say.
And, you can buy experience! Buying a stone means testing it. Then, you read. Then buy another. After you understand what bevel is and how to set it correctly, compare what you already have. Then learn how to strop, if you are a HAD guy. And, there you have it, experience! What you don't like, you can always sell it. But not in a higher price than you bought it, that's the rule.
Well I add my two cents,
I do hone my and some other people razors for some time and I can tell that with my personal razors I do come back and re hone them again, and again using different stones, technique and finishers. Results are mostly similar to previous but sometimes I will gain in the blade smoothness and sharpness I have desire. Then this razor will end up in box as mark"not for sell, do not touch" and I will be using them until I really need to be re honed. So in fact this is quite of art. In order to get the great edge on any razor. Fact is that many times I was disappointed with some of highly recommended brand not because they called Filarmonica, DD or other but because they steel was not as expected. Not a brand, just razor steel. From the other side I was many times suppressed by brands I have never heard about as their steel were fantastic and I tent to keep these razors.
Sharp on one razor does not mean sharp on other. One technique does not apply to all. Smooth is not the same smooth on water and oil finisher.
I've got the honing part figured out, but what is the best grit for breadknifing?
I’m not going to speak for LikesBBS, but I think the reason why a lot of these posts sound the same is because the specifics are often left out. We say that a person has to learn to get a good edge with a 1, 4, 8 combination and I accept this as true. But what is often not communicated is HOW you do this. I often compare learning to hone to my experiences learning to cook. The chefs that taught me what I know mostly came from France, spoke SOME English, and had varied ability to convey their knowledge. When a student would ask the honing equivalent of “how many passes are required on X stone”, or in cooking terms “how long do you cook that?”, the answer was similar to the YMMV we often offer up. If you were dealing with a nice chef, he’d simply say “you cook it until its done”. If he was a smart a$$, he’d say something like “you put it in a 600 degree oven for 8 hours until its completely black and then you know that its done”. True story, BTW. I remember making hollandaise sauce during these first few days. The chef would say that you need to cook the egg before you add the butter. But saying you need to cook the egg or cook something until its done does not convey what the student needs to know. The key was telling them HOW to determine doneness. In the case of the egg, one of the better teachers of the group broke it down for them. He told them to cook it over the flame, whisking constantly until it begins to thicken, then remove it from the heat to slow things down some. And when the egg is thick and the whisk steams, you know you’re ready to add the butter. As I continue to learn about this, I often ask questions that are the equivalent of asking how I know when something is done. And I ask this of a few of you who are patient enough to try to answer these questions for me (you know who you are, thanks again). So when a new guy is asking how many x strokes are needed at a certain level, what he’s really asking is, “how do I know when its done?”. I guess sometimes the answer is YMMV, but if you know that the egg needs to thicken and whisk needs to show steam, tell him that.
Ya, I hear ya Bob. Even with a new cartridge I still feel tug on a few areas and my SR is actually providing less tug than that atm. Had it in my mind tht there was a possibility in getting a razor to 0 tug since there's so many lengths in sharpening a blade, but now realize only so many comfortable ones. And that OCD bit ... ya lol ... it can take things farther than they need to be - like my sanding project :boohoo:
I heard Lynn once shaved with a blade of grass
And gssixgun once honed the claws on a cornered wolverine to a mirror finish, in the middle of January while it hadn't eaten in a month and was protecting it's babies using only a nortons 8k that he lapped on on a rock - true story.
69 responses and almost 900 views...under 12 hours...what have I done here :lurk:
Well, it's actually become an interesting thread, so I'll throw my opinion in while we're hot.
Learning to hone isn't hard, but it isn't easy either. It takes time, patience and practice. As the German philosopher, Ludwig Wittgenstein, said, there are some things that cannot be said, they can only be shown. (And, yes, I'm being serious here.)
Honing is like that. I read everything in the Library before I started to try to hone, and I watched all the videos. But until I visited AFDavisII, who so kindly invited me into his home to explain honing to me, I was flying blind. I was making some progress, but I was full of questions, had doubts about the various tests, didn't know how to tell a shave ready edge from one that needed more work and didn't have any idea about what that additional 'work' might be. I learned more in two hours of him 'showing' me how he honed and stropped than I have probably learned since. That is why the forum encourages mentoring, getting together with someone who knows how it is done and seeing it happen.
Without that, honing can still be learned, but the questions about what grits, how many passes, when to move from stone to stone are difficult, if not impossible, to give good answers to because of the variations in razors, honing techniques and general levels of understanding of what is going on and what to do about it. It is very difficult to be helpful with any real accuracy without being there with a learning honer and seeing what he is doing. Is he using both hands, using too much pressure, is his honing stroke wrong in some way that cannot be communicated in text?
I don't use Lynn's Pyramid technique anymore, but it was helpful to me at first because I really had nothing else to go on.
So the best advice I can come up with is to meet with someone, if you can, who knows how to hone. Failing that possibility, I would point out that the Library, if read and studied, will point new honers in the right direction. Practice and patience and not expecting too much too soon will complete the journey. Getting good at honing is really a matter of making all the mistakes I've made, learning from them and moving on to higher quality honing by avoiding those mistakes in the future. I was able to produce a shave ready blade in a month, with kind assistance from AFDavisII. I don't know where I'd be if I hadn't gotten that help. I would have learned because I had dedicated myself to doing it and putting in the time to get it done. It just takes study, practice, patience and time.
I'd say you hit a nerve...;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by LikesBBS
It is a manmade with natural binders, please alow the binders to fully cure.Quote:
Originally Posted by ace
Attachment 127650
here look at this one:Quote:
Originally Posted by pfries
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zD2z2vJEpKQ
^^^^ I forgot about that one another very proper method^^^^
If you use milk it's always easy to find your hones...
You just joined last Month and your already an Internet Sensation ...can't wait for your next thread....:)Quote:
Originally Posted by LikesBBS
Guilty as charged! I actually bought a couple of razors shave ready to put off learning to hone!!Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
The main reason I recommend the World of Straight Razor Shaving DVD (World Of Straight Razor DVD - Straight Razor Place Classifieds) is that the honing process was presented as "doable" and after watching it I mustered up the guts to do it! I was so afraid of ruining the razor and never getting back the edge that the original hone job had.
So, you wanted to start a thread where people state the hone/grit they stop honing at?
Actually I think this is pretty easy...sort of.
What 'grit' is a bare leather strop? I would bet that bare leather is the stopping point before the test shave for a lot of guys.
As far as hones go, I would guess equal percentages stop at 8K and 12k synthetics. A smaller percentage go higher. If you are talking naturals...you cannot really get true grit sizes (unless someone feeds you a line and you believe it).
I think the real question here should be, why would anyone care how others hone...why not concentrate on your own results and how to improve them?
If you are using 12K (I mean using it effectively and to its full potential...or even close to its potential), then you should not be concerned in the LEAST with what others here tell you. Or at least you shouldn't concern yourself with what I tell you, because I am not at that level yet...and I suspect there are a few others in the same boat.
That said, not all blades can truly benefit from super high grits...
