I'm impressed! In my case you conjured up some memories, which have become fond ones because I have since learned to hone.Quote:
Originally Posted by LikesBBS
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I'm impressed! In my case you conjured up some memories, which have become fond ones because I have since learned to hone.Quote:
Originally Posted by LikesBBS
Lots of chatter on this thread. Lets some it up in a few dumb words. Different steels, prefer different finishers, subject to the skill of the person honing and the preference of the shaver.
I personally like a sharp, smooth edge. Lol!
I think I should of just made this a poll.... than you'd all just push the button and I could avoid all the other nitter natter that I already know from having probobly read everything on this site.
But for what it's worth, I enjoyed stirring the pot :D
All ya had to say was 8k, 12k, 16k and maybe include your paste :idea:
You guys are fun :popcorn:
LMFAO!!! that video with the brick...LOL priceless.
And yes, in a sense my fault for not titling this thread better lol, probobly what did all this.
Should of just titled it "which hone do you finish on" or something along those lines.
Why so much discussion on the difference between smoothness and sharpness? They are one and the same. A razor that feels sharp but not smooth has an imperfect edge, period.
We already have some polls about this,
http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...lar-basis.html
and
http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...le-choice.html
The first two that came in mind.
Sharpening is a funny thing. Not just for razors for any blade. It's tell tail signals lay just on the edge of our vision and just on the edge of our sense of touch. Perception of these signs are hard to exchange in words. Maybe the language required is lacking. Sounds like many an art to me. At that scale it's just not as easy as between 3 and 4 inches tall or harder than pine but softer than oak. Science is just so much more concise.
That said -- After the bevel is set I hone away starting with a little slurry and a little pressure, working to no pressure and clean water. All the while I'm feeling for the work to stop requiring less effort. I check for evenness. When the work is even and I feel no more reduction in drag and the steel floats evenly across the top of the hone I move to the next finer hone. When there are no more hones within reach I strop it up on just an old but unadulterated piece of leather and give it a shot. After a stropping I've shaved off my 6k king, I've shaved off my Japanese finishing hone I know nothing about and should probably try to get identified, I've shaved off my 10k Naniwa, I've shaved off my no name barbers hone. If arm hair is all you're after I've shaved off lot courser than that with a chisel or plane blade. What I'm looking for in a hone besides being able to produce a keen edge is how well I can feel that edge come into being. That is maybe even the most important aspect of a hone and of the act of honing.
The bottom line is you're done when it feels right on your face which probably means it also slides pretty effortless across the top of your hone too.
I have had issues where I've been less than impressed with my results, walked away for a few minutes, came back and given it a few super light passes and found a sweet spot to stop at that I can only explain as magic or I was just plain holding the razor to tight with my tired hand to really feel what I was doing. This same explanation could be used to explain a few of my shave too.
As an interesting aside, does anyone else tend to put the stones flat on your hand instead of laying it flat on the table? I've taken to doing this for my last few strokes at least. I feel it improves the feedback I can get from the stone and allows me to hold the razor in a more natural way. I doubt I would use this technique with my kitchen or pocket knives but it seems to work really well to top things off.
Man... I talk toooo much sometimes.
^ truly inspiring. I too like to go back and do a few light laps to find that "sweet spot"
And the idea of holding the hone in your hand sounds very tempting. But my NSS12k has a stupid plastic stand stuck to it. Maybe I'll try with 8k for giggles.
Is it me or o the rocks look better by themselves hmmm?
Everyone else has pitched in their spare change, I might as well too.
I'm qualified! I participated in JaNorton!
Too much of the physical sensation of shaving is happening in your brain for you to really be able to judge what's a really good edge until I've done a lot of shaving.
You, me, everybody -- we all interpret the world around us, and it gets dangerous when we assume those interpretations are objective fact. There is a blind-spot roughly the size of a dime DEAD CENTER in your field of view where the optic nerve connects to the retina. Your brain fills in that gap like the smart fill tool in Photoshop. All of your senses work this way. We do not experience the world as unfiltered data. You get to facts with repeated observation (for values of observation that don't just include looking). Lots and lots of repetition.
This applies to shaving.
One day a shave can feel like wiping butter off your fingernail with a feather and the next, with the same blade, stropped exactly the same way, it can feel like dragging a two-by-four over a cornfield. Some days shaving just isn't as comfortable no matter how good the edge.
But I'm not here to destroy objective reality. Where do you stop with honing?
Stop at the Norton 8k.
REALLY.
Unless you've got an enormous pile of razors (like me), you aren't going to be honing very often. Get better at stropping, because that's going to make a more regular difference in your perception of the edge quality. For a long time there was no practical difference between the edge I produced with a Norton 8k and lots of good stropping and the edge I could produce on a sweetheart CNAT and 'regular' amounts of stropping.
Here's the procedure that I find works best with every endeavor.
Step 1: Build your skill to 'good enough'.
Step 2: Keep doing it that way until 'good enough' isn't, every time you do it.
Step 2: Learn the technique for the next 'good enough'.
Iterate until you take a dirt-nap. Or hell, find a 'good enough' that works for you and just be happy there. Unless you're making edges for other people, that's all that matters!
Ummm. Seven hundred and sixty four. No no, wait! 3. No! just a sec! Super Sharp with fries on the side and a café latte.Quote:
Originally Posted by LikesBBS
How sharp? How can you answer that?
Like has been said, sometimes there's a trade off between sharpness and smoothness. I know by Burrell is always sharp but rarely smooth, my little Wade and Butcher Special is always smooth. I guess I COULD get the Burrell smooth, but it LENDS itself better to scary sharp. The W&B doesn't LEND itself to scary sharp, it's strength is in the smoothness. My Swedish framebacks are always sharp. I think you need to find out what the soul of the razor is and exploit it. Bit like a woman really. You can't change them. If you try to, they cut you.
I'm one of those people who laugh at those who go on and on about wine tasting and who says "I don't know anything about wine but I know what I like".
A lot of people would say that just proves I'm not knowledgeable, which is probably true, but I prefer the term plausibly implausible...
My favourite edge is the one i put on my Puma razor from start to finish on my own, by myself. I have sharper razors from members here, but you can't beat the feeling you get from finally cracking one. It has taken a long time for me to get there, but i am on to my tenth shave with said razor and very happy with myself. My other razors are not happy at all, in fact i think i can hear them rattling in disgust right now. But who needs them? I doubt our forefathers would have had more than one or two. Having said that, with the knowledge i have found here,and the help and guidance from fellow members, i am very grateful.
Definitely give it a shot. With the exception of my 1k while bevel settings, I hold all my hones. It helps when working with bades that have geometry that's a little funny. That way you can manipulate the blade as well as the hone.Quote:
Originally Posted by LikesBBS
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcline
This thread has grown legs, That's good!
Hand held honing, Yes, I do. Depends on the hone, The 7x1.5 Escher alsmost all the time. Every once in a while, if I'm tired from honing, I'll lay it on top of another hone. Small Coticules too, like 6x2's (150x50) for our friends across the pond.
I do know exactly what you mean about the feedback aspect of it. The Shapton GS series can be held to, they're relatively light weight, and currently my weapon of choice. I use different finishers on different steels. I find Sheffields respond very well to my Nakayama Asagi (Maruichi)
Anyone else prefer certain finishers on certain steels?
I keep thinking about this. I thought from the start sharper is smoother... so long as the bevel's right and the finish is even. When I first started I noticed tug... lot's... and I'm shaving the same as before but getting the blade sharper each time, and sharpening it myself. It feels better the sharper it's getting. I can understand in a sense that if it's really sharp t can be harsh, but at the same time could that really just be lack of consideration for technique whilst shaving? I mean if you have a dull axe you know to swing it hard... where as if you just sharpened it... the weight is enough. Same as if your using a freshly sharpened razor... lighter touch from your normal right?Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyFranciozi
I mean, take a cartridge for example... after each use.. more tug and irritation since it's dulling. Same as a Straight but they get stropped so it's edge is being prolonged.
I think my next experiment after a few more shaves with the NSS12k... is to keep going up and see how I like it.
TO THE MOON!
Nice thread. I think I've learned more from the answers to this "unanswerable question", than from from a lot of other reading.
Smooth and sharp are really not one and the same. They are interrelated but they are not synonymous.
Sharp is how close you can make the two sides come together. Smooth is related to the topography of those two sides. Yes, I think the latter will improve the former but that doesn't mean they are the same thing. It is possible (and indeed not uncommon) to have a very smooth razor that will not shave anything because it is not sharp. An extreme example - breadknife a razor and then run it over a CrOxed strop for 1000 laps and see what you get.
Yes, I understand the point - a "good" edge is a good edge. Why bother with these distinctions? The reason is to draw attention to the idea that bevel setting is the foundation. So many new users just want to know about the finishing stones or pastes as the way to get a good shave off a straight. I (and others) have been watching it over and over for the past 7 years on this and other forums. Frustration always ensues because in effect they are trying to create, say, a violin by using sandpaper directly on a tree.
So we highlight the difference between sharp and smooth to help people visualise the honing process, and hopefully make them understand that without the grunt work (bevel setting for sharpness) they are doomed to failure on the higher polishing grits (smoothness).
James.
Just to add the next step to Jimbo's excellent post...
After all that edge work, many take it TOO far and figure if one is good two is better.. You will see posts from new honers stacking Finishers at the end trying to get more and more out of it, when there is only so much to give...
You only got so much arm hair :rofl2:Quote:
Originally Posted by zib
Personally I look at anything above 8k as a finisher regardless. I love my Nani 12k, but I would like to try mike's zulu at some point, and the nubutama bamboo 15k. I figure as long as the grit or the nati stone isn't more than double the 8k grit there's no need to stack the 12k and 15k or 12k, 15k or 16k and 30k. I say 8k, 12k stop. 8k, 16k, 30k stop. or 8k, natural stop. Just me though.
I'll jump on this thread. I hone my razor based on the kind of steel it is (or what kind of steel I assume it is). My harder steel razors I finish on Charnley Forest. My sheffields and softer steel razors get finished on the thuringian. Everything in between gets done on a NSS 10k.
If the topography of the two sides is not smooth, then the edge they make when they meet will not be sharp, it will be rough and jagged. It may feel sharp because it cuts hair perfectly well, but it is not truly sharp. Sharpness has be defined as two surfaces meeting at a line of zero width. Such an edge is not possible (with today's technology) but hypothetically, it stands to reason that if those two surfaces are not smooth the edge they create will not have zero width, and thus will not be truly sharp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
I think that when people talk about smooth and sharp they may think they are talking about the physical state of the edge, but they are really describing how the razor feels when they shave with it. Those are two completely different concepts, and novice honers would be better served if they understood that, as opposed to thinking about honing in terms of artificial distinctions that are confusing. At least they confuse me, lol.
Could the edge not have near zero width, yet not be a straight edge? That is, the edge comes together very closely (near zero width) yet it is a ragged edge that comes together with near zero width? Just thinking aloud; not arguing at all :)Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyFranciozi
Glen, can you expand on your last post a little? What happens if you 'take the edge too far? Will it become fragile and break?
That's a good question, and I really don't know the answer. That's the hardest thing about sharpening for a beginner I think, not being able to see your work. At least not the last micron that matters.Quote:
Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider
When you are talking about sides of metal being brought together by the use of abrasive particulates, there can be no such thing as "a" line of zero width, it is more about being within an arbitrary small constant of zero width. There will be variations due to the particulates imparting their "scratches" under various rotations of configuration, and random contributions as well. Whenever I talk about sharp I envisage a maximum or upper bound for the whole edge.
As I said above, I do not disagree that higher grit hones will continue the process of bringing the sides closer together. What finishing grit hones will not do in a practical time-frame is take an edge to the point of being able to shave if it is too far away to start with. That's not to say you cannot do it, just that unless a person has enough experience at honing the common historically observed pattern is that they stop too soon and continue up the grits to produce a highly polished and very smooth dull edge.
I find it difficult to believe that the maximum width between two sides, and the makeup of the sides themselves can be considered by anyone to be an artificial distinction. They are physically different things. While I agree that the names we call these two things may indeed be confusing, I fail to see the problem. You can call them "Ted" and "Bob" if you want. It doesn't change the fact that they are what they are.
James.
Why you just figured it out for yourself :)Quote:
Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider
There are three aspects to the edge 1. Smoothness of the bevels 2. The sharpness, which is defined as the absolute micron width of the edge (about .38 microns "max" per the Verhoeven papers) 3. the "Eveness" of that edge from heel to toe (what we often refer to as jaggedness)
Each razor has a absolute max sharpen point by geometry and steel combined with the hones and the pressure (the honer)
When that point is pushed past then the edge fails, how it fails is determined by the razor itself and the honing... Most of the time it is a Harsh, Fragile, Chippy, edge, to learn this for yourself, push the edge and see what happens and how it feels...
On a practical level what I am trying to say is this: If you hone an edge at 240 grit, the sides will be rough, and the edge will be quite wide. At 1000 grit the sides will be smoother and the edge will be narrower, but still not nearly as smooth and as narrow as they would be at 4000 or 8000 grit. What I am saying is that sharpness (the width of the edge) and smoothness (of the planes that form the edge) progress linearly, and in tandem.
In the above example I'm assuming the blade is being honed properly. I mean, you could polish a butter knife on crox and it would be very smooth and shiny but still wouldn't be sharp because the edge is round. That is something completely different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyFranciozi
There is the flaw in your hypothesis, on a practical level, using your words, the edge gets sharp at a much lower level and much faster then it gets smooth...
Sharp is easy, search out the thread where the guys did a 1k bevel shaving test, sharp is there really early
Kinda of confused. Why 8k,12k stop or 8k, 16k, 30k stop i mean going from 8-30 is 3x the 8-12 isn't it? But I have heard the nani 12k is pretty much the same as a shapton 16 because of what it's made of... not 100% but I thought I read that somewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddle
By the way I had a wonderful shave today...my 1st wtg pass felt like nothing and it made it look 80%bbs.... was tempted to not even bother with the rest of the passes lol. STILL HHT'D AFTER SHAVE TOO!!! was happy bout this :D
Noobs for ya ;)
1k might give you a shave but that doesn't mean the cutting edge is as thin as it is after 8k. How could it be?Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
You are jumping to a conclusion,,, Try it and see what you findQuote:
Originally Posted by TonyFranciozi
If I were better at those cool computer graphics things I could make it more clear but alas I am not, Try and visualize that edge in 3d
Hmmm . . . still not convinced hahaha.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
It's times like this I wish I had an electron microscope.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyFranciozi
Oh no I will never convince you, you will convince yourself or not at all...
Sit down in front of the TV, tune to a few good shows, hone a few thousand razors, get back to me with what you figure out :p
Oh and to quote the founder of this site "Have Fun" :D
Something that helped me understand was thinking about what the sharpest edge you might be able to get with a 220 grit stone or even courser looks like. Almost like a little fine toothed saw huh?
Another interesting exercise to help visualize what's going on might be to go get some 60 120 220 and 400 grit sandpaper and a 1/4 inch thick piece of wood and "sharpen" it with the paper flat on your bench. Cover your "spine" side with 6 layers of duct tape if that helps ya keep things consistent. Set a bevel with the 60 that only eats a 16th into each side. Notice the 1/8 inch flat where there should be sharp on your edge. Go ahead and move up the grits one by one as you would with the hones. Each successive grit removing only the grooves of the previous. Feel the bevel and the edge with each grit. If you don't over do it I bet you have at least 1/16 of an inch wide edge. Then go back to your 60 and start all over. Only this time set a complete bevel and work your way up. I feel like this should make things painfully obvious. Most woods at 400 feel pretty smooth. No wood I know of feels smooth at 60. And that first attempt before you really set the bevel doesn't fool anyone into appearing sharp even if the bevel is buttery smooth to the touch.
I'm sure this experiment would show you what happens when you sharpen edge first vs edge last too. With edge last I'm sure you get a furry little burr especially on a soft wood.
If you wanna keep going, find some wet dry paper and take it grit by grit to 4000. Sure it's smoother than 2500 and sure that's smoother than 1200 but is it really appreciably smoother and with how much work? I'm guessing by 800 or 1200 you're really slipping hairs. (I'm sure I'm not the only one that can't resist this pun around here. :p)
When I was younger I did hardwood floors and I certainly learned you really had to go through all the grits or you where just making more work for yourself or making a floor covered in scratch marks. Over doing it just leaves less floor to refinish later.
Same deal really.
As a woodworker of many years who thinks power tools are the devil's work, I can safely say I've sharpened the equivalent of thousands of razors. That is in the form of planes, chisels, saws, augers, drill bits, scrapers, etc. Not to mention the razors in my meager collection. The tools may be different, but the concept is the same.
Tony, man pm me if you've got any tips on sharpening inside bevel gouges. I've gotta dig up a cone and some slips still. Honestly I'm a little intimidated by the cone and sharpening something not flat.
There is an easier way, pm sent.
Ahhhhhhhh, now it all makes sense, thanks for the clarification...Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyFranciozi
Not sure what that cleared up, but sure, no problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
This thread is becoming very informative. So, pray tell, how do we know when a bevel is set? I (probably foolishly) use 800 or 1000 wet and dry. When that shaves leg hair very 'nicely' (I have no arm hair to speak of) I then start my 4/8 pyramids (I generally find pyramids constrain me, without them I 'just do stuff'). I have no loupe, though I am slightly loopy...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
I know that's a very fundamental question re. the bevel, just thought I'd get an opinion...
BTW, this is a thought provoking statement, sums up the whole sharp Vs smooth thing really...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
I have sharpened things since I was around 11 or 12, my grandfather taught me how and I always loved knives and sharp things. I went on to work in a packing house after I got out of the Navy cutting up 4000 hogs a day. Without bravado, I kept one of the sharpest knives in the plant and taught alot of guys how to do that. That being said, a razor takes a completely different skillset to hone. The only advantage is that kinda like Forrest, 'I know what sharp is...'. You know what sharp is, but half the fun is learning how to get there with different hones, strokes, and techniques.
Take a sharp and smooth razor and give it 10 light x strokes on a 4k (or coarser if you like).
Is it now dull? Only if your strokes have very poor form...but it is now not as smooth.