Comparatively yes, it is now dull.Quote:
Originally Posted by unit
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Comparatively yes, it is now dull.Quote:
Originally Posted by unit
Whatever stone you just used not what you started the progression with. So if you start with the 8k, then you say go to the 12k and stop; or you could say go 8k then 16k b/c the grit range is no more than double the previous grit hone. As was mentioned earlier, this would be easier than say going from 4k straight to 16k to finish.Quote:
Originally Posted by LikesBBS
A less sharp object is not dull. And, I'm not sure if (for society?) sharp means honed to a fine grit, or a very thin bevel. You can touch a convex edge that feels dull, but it could very well shave like the finest razor, under conditions. And you can touch a knife with thin bevel, finished on 200 grit and say "wow that's sharp".
And, the whole "grit" thing, it is annoying. It's the particle size and shape that make something sharp, not the number of digits behind the word "grit". The 1 micron for Norton company is somewhere between 18 and 25k grit (anyone who knows, please specify), but for most Japanese companies, it's just 10k. That means, the Norton 8k has particles in the size of a 3-5k Japan made stone. Unfortunately, I haven't had the chance to compare an 8k Japanese stone with the Norton, to come to a conclusion.
I would suggest the use of the micron system to grade the stones, but then, we would need a way to compare the shape of the cutting particles, since ball shaped 10 micron particles would cut finer than 3 micron pyramid shaped particles. All this, to find a reliable method of comparing the cutting and polishing results of stones. Thinking about is PITA. Thinking in general is PITA. Living is a PITA. I should have been born an razor. Made from Wootz steel with fancy scales. :banghead:
beauty is in the eye of the beholder - same goes for sharpness :tameshigiri:Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasilis
Perhaps this is a better explanation. By the way, this is the way I see it and it may not apply to everyone. It's a visualisation I use when I hone and seems to work.
There's a boundary point above which a razor will not cut hair. Below that point (the shave zone ...:D), there is a very wide range of "sharpness". Perhaps surprisingly, something like a 1K hone will put most decent razors in the shave zone. I, and I know others as well, have shaved with a 1K edge just to see what it is like. It works but is not pleasant. I wouldn't call a razor in that condition dull, since it shaves. I'd call it rough.
I guess the thing is how you visualise the grits - it isn't linear as you increase grit, it's geometric basically. Here's a picture I cribbed from Wikipedia showing 2D squares as opposed to 3D, but it does show how quickly the size drops:
Attachment 127812
The big square represents, say, the 1K particulates. The next a 2K, then 4K, 8K, 16K and so on.
Now if you are getting an edge that shaves (albeit roughly) off particulates the size of the big square (ie, the edge is narrow enough from scratches produced by something of that size), then hopefully you can see that any reduction in the width of the edge will be very slow going off particulates related to the size of the 3rd (4K), 4th (8K) etc squares. In other words yes, they will bring the sides of the edge closer together, but very very slowly.
These higher grits, IMO, primarily serve to make the sides of the bevel smoother and less craggy. It's what you see under a scope when you look at the bevel. This does in turn effect the edge since the sides and the edge connect. But it is such a small reduction relative to what has already happened on the 1K.
That's the way I think about it anyway. It works for me, but clearly it confuses others. So take it or leave it. I'd like to know how others think about it too.
James.
I respectfully disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyFranciozi
Less shave ready? Yes
Less suitable for shaving? Yes
Less smooth? Yes
Less polished? Yes
Less sharp? No
I guess it is all how you choose to define "sharp" or, by proxy, "dull".
If somebody is confused that a smaller grit is refining and smoothing (same thing right?) the edge of their razor... than maybe they would understand it like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
You like mint? using the leaf is wonderful for cooking right? What if you used it's oil which is more concentrated requiring much less producing more bang for the amount and taking up less space.
We all use dish soap right? concentrated makes more with less.
We all like a razor that does it's job and cuts hair. So using the sharpest and smoothest edge producible - in short refined (?)will do the best job.
nomsayin?
The edge would not be as smooth thus resulting in it being less sharp. Tried it on my new razor a few times and at first it was sharp and HHT proficient ff the 12k, than after going down in grits it did not produce the same sticky feeling from the TPT or the same results from numerous HHT's.Quote:
Originally Posted by unit
Take a piece of glass and run it across some micro fibre cloth (12k)... it's still smooth and scratchless. Than take that piece of glass and rub it across your driveway (4k) doesn't look the same right? Best comparison I could think of lol.
And to say that your blade doesn't dull after going down in grits is strange since those little particles just got bigger and your smooth edge just met resistance where before there was much less (1.5x -2x -w/e) because of them. Maybe not the whole length across depending on their spacing but...they will cause a smooth edge to say...become rigid.
Yeah, that's not bad. Except that, again, while you can just whack some concentrate into hot water and wash your dishes, you cannot just hone a dull razor on a 16K and expect to get a shaving edge in finite time. You do have to go through some kind of progression first, to get to the point where your "concentrate" will do something.
I kinda like the wood turning analogy too. Start with a tree, chop it down with a chainsaw and cut a chunk off. Get it into a rough shape with a saw. Turn it on a lathe. Get it smooth with sandpaper. The proper tools for each part of the job. Same with honing.
James.
I'm loving some of these analogies, very inventive...
"Now, say you had a goat. Well, it's not a cow is it? But if you had a very very very nice tea cup and brewed some tea for a VERY long time, well, you still wouldn't have some coffee, would you. See?"
You had to get the dishes dirty first right? in the sink? fill it with water? Same obviously goes for progression lol I just left that part out as I thought it was obvious.
And the analogies are just a means to look at a perspective from a different angle... for some it could take 100 before they got the "picture"
A goat could be a cow... in the eyes of someone with poor vision.
AND YES - in fact if I took a roasted Yerba-mate and brewed it for a really long time it would bitter as hell just like coffee ;).
You can make all the analogies you want...in the end your razor is still dull
But there's a bit of a trade off between a goat and a cow. Size wise. But they both give milk. Ok, I'll shut up. Sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by LikesBBS
OK, here's my last attempt. It involves an artist's rendering, so God help you all as I don't have an artistic bone in my body.
Attachment 127840
So this is my impression of looking at the edge side on as it were. What I am saying is that if that horizontal length at the top (meant to represent the width of the edge) is too wide, then the razor is not sharp. Now if you took a 16K finishing hone to that edge as represented in the picture, all you would do is smooth out the sides (the angled vertical wobbly black smudges). You'd have a smooth but dull razor edge.
James.
Another analogy...it's like polishing a turd...in the end, well it's still a turd
Just a sec. Here's one I thought of last. A steak knife. You know the ones with the raggedy edge? I know right! You wouldn't want to shave with it would you? But they ARE sharp. Not smooth though...
I really really want to say 'prove it' but I won't :-) Ok I'm going now. Bye.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catrentshaving
Is it quicker to Minneapolis or by bus?
I polished a serrated edge with a 7 step progression up to 14,000 grit. It was very sharp, and quite smooth (at a scale smaller than the length of each scallop in the blade).Quote:
Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider
Shave with it? No way!
Pass any sharpness "test" I have ever heard of (HHT, push cut toilet paper, etc)? Yes
If you polished that turd down to it's components than no - it has now turned from a composition of units to a singular piece.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catrentshaving
Like say that 1 piece of corn that never digested.
Now , in the eyes of someone looking at that piece of corn, it is not a turd...but a piece of corn. It may have come from that turd, but it is not - in fact - by itself, the turd.
Sorry if I grossed anyone out.
And in the end what is the corn surrounded by?? You're really not getting it no matter how it's explained.
So here is my view of all of this.
The bevel has to be set.
We take 1K as the standard for setting the bevel, at this point we needed to be sharp.
If you look at the drawing below each point meets in an edge of narrow enough width which makes it sharp,
As we move up in grit we refine the bevel making the edge feel smoother it does not meet closer.
Below is an illustration of how I visualize the process,
I have been sharpening tools and knives for a lot of years, I can get things sharp, I can get things shave sharp.
However putting something to my face I want it smooth so I move up much farther in grit.
Smooth and sharp are not the same the analogy just above this about a serrated blade is a right on.
As a side note you cannot get anything to a zero width as the molecules of steel have a width,
The edge needs to be narrower than the space between the shingle like formations of the shell of how your hair grows to cut it effectively.
This will vary slightly from person to person.
Attachment 127869
If the corn is surrounded by anything after that much polishing, that honemeister did not do a good job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catrentshaving
Guess you've got it all figured out then. Good luck in your journey.Quote:
Originally Posted by LikesBBS
I'd say so, make big sharp teeth smaller to equal smoothness.
I knew this from the start.
This thread wasn't even meant for that - it was meant to see what grit folks stopped at. But due to my poor titling of the thread thanks to my nubiness it exploded into a lot more of what it did not need to be - not complaining though, as from it I've learned a good bit.
It was directed a bit more at some of the other responses,
Like I said for me it is currently 12k (and on a few new to me blades I stop at 8K till I know them a bit)
but I feel it is my experience level that stops me, I need to really learn what I have before I move on.
The good lord knows I want to play with natural stones but I feel I need a solid foundation first.
One can not take the horizontal edge of a blade and reduce it to a completely level surface - even if reduced to an atomic (molecular?) structure given the bonding which takes place to form the solid mixture you shave with and the circular shape of an atom. But what one can hope to achieve is take those atom's or molecules and bring them so closely together so that the distance between the ridge's and the level to which their place is, are both short and even resulting in smoothness which if done right from the bevel setting state results in an edge that meets as close as possible from both sides and teeth (or edge) that are as close together and placed as level as possible along the edge.
I was under the impression a first that one could take the edge after enough refining and make it completely flat IE - no teeth just a flat edge. But this could be dull if what I've been let to believe is correct.
Sharp: established at the low grit bevel setting stage. Could also be referred to as the setting of a blades geometry.
Smoothness: established in the higher grit stages resulting in the finishing of the blade, after the bevel has been properly set. Taking big teeth and making them smaller and closer together.
THIS IS WHAT EVERYONE HAS TAUGHT ME AND I THANK YOU ALL VERY MUCH!
Yes, except that depending on the abrasive used it may have more rounded peaks and troughs.Quote:
Originally Posted by pfries
Additionally (and hopefully obviously) this is a 2D representation of what is really going on. In 3D the edge trace tis both up and down and side to side. It is EASY to imagine why smooth is better.
But not sharper. In fact among knife enthusiasts, many will argue that a coarser edge performs as if it is more sharp and cuts more aggressively (same sorts of steels we use in straights).
I stop at the 12k for only 15-20 light laps
You fellas think of sharpness in a completely different way than I do. Try to see things my way ;)
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Originally Posted by TonyFranciozi
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Originally Posted by gssixgun
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Originally Posted by TonyFranciozi
Bingo !!!! hence why I gave up trying to explain it to you...
That's OK, Tony. As a fellow wood worker I understand. Don't waste your time trying to explain--they have their own mythology here, and it's not productive to challenge another's religion. ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyFranciozi
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Originally Posted by TonyFranciozi
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Originally Posted by mdarnton
Let's see if I can explain it using an anology that many here will understand...
You are what we call in some forms of martials arts (in dojo japanese) "Jukyu Sensei" Or "Student Teacher"
When a Black Belt of one style steps into the Dojo of another to learn the second style a few things can happen..
1. They accept that they are starting at square one and learn the new art, using their pervious training to excel at a slightly faster rate then a rank beginner..
2. They let their ego take over and not let go of the fact that they know nothing of the new style, and refuse to learn the new ways.
3. They try and teach their old style to the people of the new Dojo, continuously trying to convice them of their old arts superiority, and never learn the fine points and nuance of the new style...
:hmmm:
Really??Quote:
Originally Posted by mdarnton
Since your time here, you have gone out of your way to push your own methods of honing; showing disdain & contempt for any other method. What's worse is your sarcastic, condescending attitude.
I would think, Michael, that a person of your woodworking skills would contribute a lot to a forum, that often needs/uses skills such as yours, to complete scales, cases, cabinets, etc.,,,,,
Do everyone a benefit contribute something positive, Please.
I sharpen lots of woodworking tools, kitchen knives, knives and tools, still don't get what would be so different from razors.Quote:
Originally Posted by mdarnton
Sure I don't sharpen them the same way, almost all tools can benefit from some special stones or sharpening technique.
All my tools are tested in their own field of use, wood tools on wood and so on.
The main difference i can think of would be that if a plane blade shaves wood good then it's fine, a razor is doing it's work on me and I don't want it to cut down thru my skin.
But the same goes for some kitchen knives, if I'm trimming some tenderloin I don't want my knife as sharp as possible, I want it to be able to follow the sinows and membrane without cutting it.
Care to give a brief insight into their "religion"?
Wow, I don't know about anyone else but after a certain point these types of threads can give me a headache. In the end it all seems like semantics with most all wanting an edge that is sharp enough for shaving and at the same time easy on the face. Everyone has a slightly different way of getting there and even then what qualifies as sharp enough and easy on the face varies with the individual. There is no set piece method of getting there and even the desired end result is not really universally quantifiable.
Bob
Well, since you know everything already, no further comments are needed, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
It warms my heart to know the experts are still discussing what the word 'sharp' means!
I suggest this thread be kept civil and the personal feelings be put aside along with the little "jab comments"Quote:
Originally Posted by mdarnton
Let's get it back on track and do what most come here for...gather information and learn. Thank you.
Well, while we are all flexing our muscles let me jump in front of the mirror and pose!
I bought my first hone 27 years ago (a DMT plate that I still use today, actually). I began honing, grinding, Reprofiling, modifying, and improving on all sorts of sharpened steel things. The fact that I still have every diamond hone I ever bought, and they still work beautifully might demonstrate that I know what I'm doing and I take care of my stuff.
I have probably sharpened several miles of edge over the years including some pretty exotic super steels used in high end knives and competition choppers.
With all this "knowledge" of edge working, I scoffed at razor honers and their "sacred religion" just like some others. I tossed their advice to the side and restored three razors (with frowns, rust, and badly shaped bevels). I was able to repair them with ease and hone them back to a slight smile with ice uniform bevels that shaved my face as comfortably as any of my beautifully honed knives...which is to say QUITE uncomfortably!
I quickly figured that all these guys spouting about how comfortable and close their straight shaves were probably were not smoking crack, but rather were onto something I had not yet learned.
Behold!!! After over a quarter century I had NOT learned everything there is to know about honing...what a concept!!!!
Listen up. If you think you know everything...you are probably the biggest idiot here. This is not an insult, it's just an observation I have made over the years from talking to some of the BEST knife and razor makers over the years (notice I said MAKERS and not USERS). The best ones will always shut up and listen to almost anyone...because you never know where the next breakthrough will come from (and we all only have so many hours on this dirt ball...so if you can get help finding new destinations faster, it only makes sense to listen). That said...it doesn't take long to figure out who is sharing findings from doing good work, and those that are parroting what they heard from another "expert".
Again no offense. I like to think of myself as fairly humble...and fairly accomplished when it comes to working steels. But I'm never above believing that I can learn something new or improve my craft.
I'll use this opportunity to thank those here who have helped me (you know who you are;))
