Thread: One step forward, two steps back

Ok, I'm plenty frustrated as of late. When I first started out I didn't do a good job setting a bevel. Later I didn't do well figuring out when to move from 4k to 8k. Now I can't seem to figure out a finishing stone. I suppose the good news is that I'm moving forward.

So igot a new blade to work on this evening. It's 6/8, full hollow. I set the bevel on a 1k. I do my circles, x strokes on slurry. I go until it passes a thumbnail test. I rinse the hone clean and buff the edge as much as I can on the 1k. It's cutting SOME standing hair at this point and shaves at the skin level nicely. On to the 4k. Very light pressure. Circles. Then xstrokes. I keep going checking the scratch patterns to see if they are being replaced. I hang out here longer than I normally do to ensure the deep scratches are going away as much asi can get them. The razor is popping standing hairs quite well at this point. On to the 8k. Very ver light pressure. Circles again. X strokes again. I'm looking for scratch patterns to buff away. The edge is looking good. It's shaving for sure. On to the Zulu grey. Just water, no slurry. I do ten passes, it'slightly worse. Ten more, and it's that much worse. Ten more and those hairs that were popping above skin level are now just getting pushed over by the blade. What the hell is happening here? Is my Zulu different from everyone else's or am I doing something wrong along the way. BTW, diamond spray brings me back to level of sharpness I had before I ruined th edge. Am I pushing it too far at the lower grits or screwing it up at the higher grits (finishing stones).

How does it shave after;

8k and no stropping? and with 50 to 100 on plain leather?

Zulu Grey and no stropping? and with 50 to 100 on plain leather?

Diamond spray and no stropping? and with 50 to 100 on plain leather?

For me the shave test is the test that matters. With my hair the higher/smoother I go the worse the HHT and similar tests go; which is what I think is indicated by the fact that the diamond spray brings the edge back to where you expect it.

Edit: But I really like my smooth/sharp edges, I think that you may be getting edges that are smother than you are used to.

Have fun learning your new stone.

Jonathan

Is your Zulu lapped flat. Is it rounded at the edges. Are you rolling the edge at the end of the pass? I have never used a zulu but I know they are hard. If that is a true flat stone you shouldnt be getting a worse edge if you keep the pressure light, steady and smooth. If you are doing all of these things already I am stumped. With that being said I have had a chinese finisher that I will not use anymore because it did almost the same thing. And I know naturals vary in grit. I believe that chinese finisher is about a 5k anyways because it was leaving scratches when used. As far as messing the edge up on the 4k 8k I dont think you are unless you are spending hours on each grit and using alot of pressure. And you just posted that you are not. Is this the first time using that finisher? If so there may be a learning the appropriate pressure curve for that stone, as each stone is a little different.

It's probably just my lack of skill in honing but... there are razors that I just can't get 'shave ready' on a stone. I find that a cotton pasted strop a great way to finish off a razor that won't sharpen on a stone. Have too one is very finely woven one, the other cotton belt.

Originally Posted by Datsots

How does it shave after;

8k and no stropping? and with 50 to 100 on plain leather?

Zulu Grey and no stropping? and with 50 to 100 on plain leather?

Diamond spray and no stropping? and with 50 to 100 on plain leather?

For me the shave test is the test that matters. With my hair the higher/smoother I go the worse the HHT and similar tests go; which is what I think is indicated by the fact that the diamond spray brings the edge back to where you expect it.

Edit: But I really like my smooth/sharp edges, I think that you may be getting edges that are smother than you are used to.

Have fun learning your new stone.

Jonathan

I see where you're leading me and its a great suggestion. Glen had me walk this path once before when I was struggling with the lower grits. I set the bevel, shave test. 4k, shave test. 8k, shave test. It helped me a lot to really focus on what was happening. So yes, things are good after 8k. You know, somewhat unrefined feeling but definitely shaving well enough. Just not the "finishing stone" smooth feel that I'm chasing. So I move on to the Zulu and my previous work seems to be evaporating into thin air. Maybe there is something to your theory about the smoothness vs. the along the way tests. Maybe I'm freaking out as the symptoms seem to be suggesting that its getting worse when maybe its getting better. That's fodder for an experiment this weekend. I'll go back to it and give it a try after some polishing on the Zulu and shave with it no matter how many or few hairs it seems to be cutting. If it doesn't solve the problem I'll at least know I can rule that theory out. Thx.

Originally Posted by stonebraker

Is your Zulu lapped flat. Is it rounded at the edges. Are you rolling the edge at the end of the pass? I have never used a zulu but I know they are hard. If that is a true flat stone you shouldnt be getting a worse edge if you keep the pressure light, steady and smooth. If you are doing all of these things already I am stumped. With that being said I have had a chinese finisher that I will not use anymore because it did almost the same thing. And I know naturals vary in grit. I believe that chinese finisher is about a 5k anyways because it was leaving scratches when used. As far as messing the edge up on the 4k 8k I dont think you are unless you are spending hours on each grit and using alot of pressure. And you just posted that you are not. Is this the first time using that finisher? If so there may be a learning the appropriate pressure curve for that stone, as each stone is a little different.

Yep, the hone is in good shape having picked it up second hand from one of our resident expert honemeisters here. He had it lapped prior to sending it to me and I always clean it off with a little DMT action before each use. Its not the first time I'm using it but I have been getting mixed results when I do. I don't think that I'm screwing up the edges on the 4k and 8k since I seem to have made some greater progress doing my job at those grits thanks to some advice I mentioned above given to me by Glen and Stefan. Glen suggested that I watch the changes between grits by doing a test shave between each grit. Stefan has me watching the scratch patterns closely. So between those two significant tips I THINK I'm doing a better job at the lower grits. The blade is sharper and shaves well at that level. Its falling apart after that (or so I think). I did order a Welsh slate recently just to see if I can get a decent edge off of one of those. If so, maybe this stone isn't for me? Not sure. Thanks for the insight.

Originally Posted by Johnus

It's probably just my lack of skill in honing but... there are razors that I just can't get 'shave ready' on a stone. I find that a cotton pasted strop a great way to finish off a razor that won't sharpen on a stone. Have too one is very finely woven one, the other cotton belt.

I started to think this way as well. And your tip is valid. But I think I have been making that excuse too often as of late. The results I'm getting from this seem to be 50-50 at best. I can't think that SO many of my razors would fall into this category. There must be somethign that I am doing wrong or something very odd with this stone. I suspect its me. I had two Bengalls that I seemed to get really nice edges on with it. But a third Bengall doesn't seem to want to budge. I've got some more experimenting to do this weekend. Mostly giving it a shave off of the 8k and finishing stone, regardless of how it seems to be doing, no pasted stop. Then, if not doing well, I'll drop back to the Norton and test again. At that point I should be able to at least isolate the breakdown and document it even if I have no solution.

I am waiting for my Zulu Grey to get out of customs, so this thread is pretty interesting.

I've had a great sharp edge coming off tenjo nagura that seemed to get worse after mejiro. Happened a few times but somehow cleared up and I'm not sure what was going on. Am interested in what causes the edge degradation at higher grits.

How finely finished is your Zulu? Did the honemeister provide it in a shiny state or is it more like the aftermath of a DMT 325?

Just my thoughts from your first post;
I have never done the HHt, I do not drag my bade across my nails; I set the bevel at the 1k & don't leave the 1k until the entire length of the blade shaves arm hair smoothly; no trying to cut "standing arm hair" above the skin, I don't see the point. Whiskers at cut at the skin level. This is not a criticism of this method, mind you, just not a method I see use in.

I don't "circle" my strokes past the 1k,,if my bevel is set, the 4k & 8k don't need circle strokes. I find the X stroke more precise & consistent at the 4k & above honing.

If you are using tape & it's the same tape that you set the bevel with & you are using it at the start of your finisher; then the tape has worn & the angle is slightly off, thus the edge is not meeting the stone as much.

You are possibly not cutting hairs "above" skin level with the Zulu, because the Zulu has smoothed out the edge left by the 8k; the hairs are being cut "above" skin level at the 8k because the hairs are being "grabbed" by the
8k edge.

When shaving, the blade is being pushed through the whiskers by the weight of the blade, with the blade against the skin, there is not much room for the whiskers to "flex/give" , as with standing arm hair above the skin.

I would set the bevel to smooth arm hair removal, paramid through the 4 & 8, then your Zulu, then shave test.

Just my thoughts & I usually don't comment on a person's honing technique, because I'm only into it 2 years & under 100 razors,,,,,,but I've had a lot of coffee this morning.

Originally Posted by Hirlau

Just my thoughts from your first post;
I have never done the HHt, I do not drag my bade across my nails; I set the bevel at the 1k & don't leave the 1k until the entire length of the blade shaves arm hair smoothly; no trying to cut "standing arm hair" above the skin, I don't see the point. Whiskers at cut at the skin level. This is not a criticism of this method, mind you, just not a method I see use in.

I don't "circle" my strokes past the 1k,,if my bevel is set, the 4k & 8k don't need circle strokes. I find the X stroke more precise & consistent at the 4k & above honing.

If you are using tape & it's the same tape that you set the bevel with & you are using it at the start of your finisher; then the tape has worn & the angle is slightly off, thus the edge is not meeting the stone as much.

You are possibly not cutting hairs "above" skin level with the Zulu, because the Zulu has smoothed out the edge left by the 8k; the hairs are being cut "above" skin level at the 8k because the hairs are being "grabbed" by the
8k edge.

When shaving, the blade is being pushed through the whiskers by the weight of the blade, with the blade against the skin, there is not much room for the whiskers to "flex/give" , as with standing arm hair above the skin.

I would set the bevel to smooth arm hair removal, paramid through the 4 & 8, then your Zulu, then shave test.

Just my thoughts & I usually don't comment on a person's honing technique, because I'm only into it 2 years & under 100 razors,,,,,,but I've had a lot of coffee this morning.

Coffee is good. So drink a lot of coffee. I had the bevel set. That wasn't an issue. It was shaving at the skins surface. I use the standing arm hair thing not as a true test but it gives me a temperature reading during the process. If I can get the edge to pass the thumb nail test at bevel set, that’s good. If it shaves, that too is good. If I can push it a little further and get it to grab a few standing hairs, I interpret that as better. Then as I move on to 4k, it will continually get more efficient popping those hairs as I progress. I check that along with the scratch patterns to see how things are progressing. Its not a test in an of itself but it gives me an idea of what is happening. Every razor I’ve had professionally honed would cut hair in this fashion so its something that I have come to expect as I do my own. When it reverses, that indicates to me that I may be going in the wrong direction. As we often say, have at least one good, professionally honed razor on hand to give yourself something to compare your work to. I check those edges under a microscope to see if mine look similar. I take notice to how they behave physically (cutting hair), and of course how efficiently they shave. So I’m using that as means to gauge how things are progressing or changing after each step.