Thread: Backhoning?

I came across the following saved file (authored by David Uthe) on the Yahoo site today and was curious to hear some opinions from some of the more experienced here.

The last sentence in the two paragraphs from the message below is the one in question. It has been my understanding to get as close as possible to a wire edge without actually getting one, the information below advises this wire edge to be used as a honing guide.

Mr. Uthe to my understanding is considered a knowledgeable veteran to straight shaving. I'm just curious to hear some of your comments on this subject.

Miles

Message # 49209

From: "uthed1" <uthed@sbcglobal.net>
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 2:53 am
Subject: Re: Wire edge Woes uthed1

Back-honing is just like it sounds. Keeping the same angle of the
razor horizontally on the stone as in regular (forward) honing, simply
reverse direction by moving the razor with the edge TRAILING, keeping
a v-e-r-y light touch. Three or four round-trips on the stone ought
to do it. Then a couple of light forward passes. The "wire" often
comes off in little thin hairs of metal you can see on the stone. At
the point the wire is removed is about as sharp as that razor will
ever be before moving to the plain-leather strop, which is the next
step.

As long as we're on the subject, a wire-edge is generally an
indication in honing that its time to move on to the next stage in
the procedure. If you are building a new edge on an outright dull or
dammaged razor, for instance, beginning with a coarse stone, wait
until a wire edge develops before moving to the next finer stone in
the sequence. In going from coarse stone to finer stone, there is no
need to first remove the wire. The next finer stone will do that for
you. Continue the procedure through your stones until your finest
stone. Removing the wire-edge is saved for the final stone, prior to
stropping. So, back-honing will always apply to finishing a final
edge on a stone before the strop.

Yes, I would agree with that post. Simple eh?

It is one approach to honing. Now tell me how you will know when a wire edge is formed? No matter which approach a person uses to honing they will have to develop "markers" of some type that indicate when to move on to the next hone and when to stop honing and test shave. David developed his method and for him it works.

There would be no harm done if a person gave Davids method a try and developed the process for themselves.

Thanks for the replies gentleman.

After reading this it got me thinking that while this isn't the less is more approach, and should only be used for blades that need a bevel set it seemed like an alternative for a guy with a microscope and a lack of experience.

By taking the blade to a wire edge (easily seen with a microscope) with a coarser stone the honer is sure that both bevels meet at the edge along the entire blade, by progressing through the finer stones following David's instructions remove the remaining wire on the finishing stone followed by a few regular strokes would leave the edge as David describes "about as sharp as that razor will ever be before moving to the plain-leather strop". This procedure seems like it would take away allot of guesswork and knock down on the amount of test shaves and indecision a new guy faces.

I am not in any position to recommend this as an alternative but I found this point of view interesting. I think I will test this method on my next eBay acquisition.

Miles

Miles,

Please do experiment and let us know how it goes.

I personally do not agree with the post you quoted. From what I've seen, the edge is damaged when a wire edge breaks away. I've created a wire on some of the coarser stones that left my blade looking like a crosscut saw when I finally got it off...

When the wire forms and then breaks off, you have to do more work on the next grit to get the edge back into shape. It's hard to get even small irregularities out with the higher grits.

I would think that the degree of damage lessens each time you move up to a higher grit, but it seems like it makes more sense to just avoid damaging the edge in the first place.

So, I don't mean to come across harshly, but I think that this approach will double or triple the amount of work it takes to get an edge ready.

I could be wrong; the author of that post probably has a lot more experience than I do.

Good luck,
Josh

Miles, Thank you for posting this method. I was finally able to get a very comfortable shave from one of my razors using this approach However, I only used my Norton 8k not any lower grits. 50 round trips on the 8k with the light back honing and a few light forward.

You know something that really sucks? Digging bits of former wire-edge out of your $$ 15k shapton with tweezers and a microscope... One guess how I know...

You something else that really sucks? Re-lapping your $$ translucent arkansas stone because the wire edge sheared off and gouged the stone... Ask me how I know...

YMMV, however. Do whatever works for you.

Originally Posted by mparker762

You know something that really sucks? Digging bits of former wire-edge out of your $$ 15k shapton with tweezers and a microscope... One guess how I know...

You something else that really sucks? Re-lapping your $$ translucent arkansas stone because the wire edge sheared off and gouged the stone... Ask me how I know...

YMMV, however. Do whatever works for you.

I never realised the translucent Arkansas was that soft. My white Arkansas is not that soft and honing woodworking tools till the wire edge comes off has never damaged the stone. Are the stones different? I'm not sure but I think my stone is a German quarried equivalent to the Arkansas though labeled as an Arkansas. Possibly the same makeup as the US stone but formed 150million yrs ago in Germany. Anyone here know if this is possible?

PuFF

Originally Posted by PuFFaH

I never realised the translucent Arkansas was that soft. My white Arkansas is not that soft and honing woodworking tools till the wire edge comes off has never damaged the stone. Are the stones different? I'm not sure but I think my stone is a German quarried equivalent to the Arkansas though labeled as an Arkansas. Possibly the same makeup as the US stone but formed 150million yrs ago in Germany. Anyone here know if this is possible?

It's not soft like a shapton (which feels like unfired ceramic), but it's not terribly hard compared to a razor. When it happened to me the razor peeled a mylar-thin ribbon off the hone before the fin tore completely off. The stone is pretty translucent anyway and the ribbon was so thin I only saw it as it twisted sideways - it was completely invisible looking through it the thin way.

I think I was honing a Heljestrand at the time. The gouge couldn't be felt with my fingers, but the razors made a little clicking sound as they went over, and the part of the razor hitting that gouge wouldn't get sharp until I lapped it again.

Originally Posted by mparker762

You know something that really sucks? Digging bits of former wire-edge out of your $$ 15k shapton with tweezers and a microscope... One guess how I know...

You something else that really sucks? Re-lapping your $$ translucent arkansas stone because the wire edge sheared off and gouged the stone... Ask me how I know...

YMMV, however. Do whatever works for you.

Yikes!! I would not want to have to do that. But I'm curious now; how do YOU deal with an overhoned razor? I believe Lynn recommends backhoning. My honing skills aren't developed to the point where I won't get an overhoned edge now and then.

Mike