Thread: Good steel for knives.

I forgot one thing that is very important. It was for me anyway. When I was a kid my dad gave me a pocket knife and explained that stainless blades would rust less but carbon blades would stay sharp longer. That was around 1969 or so. Now, with improvments in stainless steels there are some that keep a sharp edge MUCH MUCH longer than the used to. So if edge retention is very important but you do work on a salt water shrimp boat you can still get a great knife with great edge retention. You don't have to stick with carbon steel to get really really good edge retention. This is so important to anyone who uses knives around water. Fishing for example. Or the people whose persperation rusts pocket knife blades easily. I think CPM-S30V is my favorite stainless steel but there are many and many more that I haven't tried.

Here is a thread I started last year asking about the quality of steel in knives, many members with experience in forging answered.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/conve...alk-steel.html

Allright, let's start by a very basic approach. I see that hasn't been done yet in this thread. Everyone is throwing out recommendations based on personal experience but there's very little actual information to teach the guy about steels.

First of all you should know that the quality of a blade is made up out of three components:

1) Steel
2) Heat treat
3) grind

You can have a great steel and excellent heat treat but a poor grind for your application then you'll have a badly cutting blade.
If you have a great heat and grind treat but a poor steel then you'll have a blade with bad edge retention or a fragile blade.
If you have a great steel and great grind treat but a poor heat treat then you'll have once again what's mentioned above.

So once we've gotten that out of the way lets talk steel.

Steels are generally a compromise between different things people want out of it:

• Corrosion resistance (stainlessness)
• Edge retention (how well will it STAY sharp)
• Ability to get a fine edge (the grain of the steel/carbides etc that determine HOW sharp you can get an edge)
• Toughness (how much abuse can it take before it'll permanently deform or break)

All of these factors are also influenced by the type of heat treat they get but let's not delve too deep into that right now.

Now like I said it's always going to be a compromise. You want a tough blade that's going to keep a great edge and can be very sharp? Maybe you'll have to choose a steel that's not as corrosion resistant (Like M4 or the earlier mentioned M2).
You want a blade that's tough and corrosion resistant but it doesn't have to be very abrasion resistant (edge retention) maybe you'll have to select 440B (like they use in Randall Knives).

So the real question is....what's important to you? Some steels do this compromise better than others. M390 (mentioned in the Ritter Griptillian by Benchmade) does an excellent compromise and excels in Edge retention, corrosion resistance and a fine edge. And since it's a smaller blade it might not be so bad that it's less tough. (Although EVERY well heat treated blade is tougher than most people tend to believe even in the more brittle steels).

D2 is very good for keeping a working edge (as is S30V) although it's not great at taking a very fine grained edge (which is why it's never used on razors) and it's decently corrosion resistant but not great. (It's also cheap....but that's not really an attribute of the steel...more one of the market because it's produced in such massive quantities.)

If you want something easy to sharpen that'll take a screaming edge but isn't very corrosion resistant one of the "Tool steels" (some of which are carbon steels, some are semi stainless) like A2, O2, 1095, 1084, 5160 or 52100 might be great.

So the real question before we can answer yours on what steel you should get is:

What are the qualities that you're looking for?

Also....your budget helps...because some steels are pretty hard to obtain in an economical package...the M390 Ritter grip is an exception to this. Normally M390 is only found on more expensive knives similar to things like S110V (currently available in the Spyderco Manix for a fair price), ZDP-189, S90V and several others.

Id choose Adamantium

Allright....get me some and I'll make you a knife out of it.

Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

Allright, let's start by a very basic approach. I see that hasn't been done yet in this thread. Everyone is throwing out recommendations based on personal experience but there's very little actual information to teach the guy about steels.

First of all you should know that the quality of a blade is made up out of three components:

1) Steel
2) Heat treat
3) grind

You can have a great steel and excellent heat treat but a poor grind for your application then you'll have a badly cutting blade.
If you have a great heat and grind treat but a poor steel then you'll have a blade with bad edge retention or a fragile blade.
If you have a great steel and great grind treat but a poor heat treat then you'll have once again what's mentioned above.

So once we've gotten that out of the way lets talk steel.

Steels are generally a compromise between different things people want out of it:

• Corrosion resistance (stainlessness)
• Edge retention (how well will it STAY sharp)
• Ability to get a fine edge (the grain of the steel/carbides etc that determine HOW sharp you can get an edge)
• Toughness (how much abuse can it take before it'll permanently deform or break)

All of these factors are also influenced by the type of heat treat they get but let's not delve too deep into that right now.

Now like I said it's always going to be a compromise. You want a tough blade that's going to keep a great edge and can be very sharp? Maybe you'll have to choose a steel that's not as corrosion resistant (Like M4 or the earlier mentioned M2).
You want a blade that's tough and corrosion resistant but it doesn't have to be very abrasion resistant (edge retention) maybe you'll have to select 440B (like they use in Randall Knives).

So the real question is....what's important to you? Some steels do this compromise better than others. M390 (mentioned in the Ritter Griptillian by Benchmade) does an excellent compromise and excels in Edge retention, corrosion resistance and a fine edge. And since it's a smaller blade it might not be so bad that it's less tough. (Although EVERY well heat treated blade is tougher than most people tend to believe even in the more brittle steels).

D2 is very good for keeping a working edge (as is S30V) although it's not great at taking a very fine grained edge (which is why it's never used on razors) and it's decently corrosion resistant but not great. (It's also cheap....but that's not really an attribute of the steel...more one of the market because it's produced in such massive quantities.)

If you want something easy to sharpen that'll take a screaming edge but isn't very corrosion resistant one of the "Tool steels" (some of which are carbon steels, some are semi stainless) like A2, O2, 1095, 1084, 5160 or 52100 might be great.

So the real question before we can answer yours on what steel you should get is:

What are the qualities that you're looking for?

Also....your budget helps...because some steels are pretty hard to obtain in an economical package...the M390 Ritter grip is an exception to this. Normally M390 is only found on more expensive knives similar to things like S110V (currently available in the Spyderco Manix for a fair price), ZDP-189, S90V and several others.

One thing nobody has said is how do you know if the steel has a good heat treat. I mean I have never seen any mention of this when looking for knives. The closest thing I have seen is a hardness rating. So.....

But heres what I would need. Prioritzed list of features goes as follows for what I want.

1.) Edge Retention
2.) Toughness
3.) Sharpness
4.) Corrosion Resistance
5.) Ease of sharpening.

I put ease of sharpening last and edge retention first because while I don't mind sharpening I don't want to do it every freaking day. I have a kershaw shuffle as my current work knife because it was on sale for 20 and its small and compact but I have to sharpen it like every day. I put corrosion resistance 4th because I don't really need it too much as I know how to care for steel and don't really go in the salt water any more. The most corrosive thing the knife will see is my sweat from being in my pocket while not in use at work, although I do sweat a lot. Toughness is second because I would like it to last a while and I tend to be quite abusive with tools. They call me "El Bruto" at work. It mean the brute. Sharpness is in the middle because while I want it to be able to easily cut things I don't need to shave with it. Thats why I have straight razors.

Also I would like it to be compact and kinda on the small side. Something that will fit in the pocket easily. We can't put knives on our belts at work nor can the be visible when not in use (stupid rules I know but I don't make them). I would say 2.5 inches being optimal and 3 being the max.

As for budget. Well I don't really have a set budget but I would like to spend as little as possible while still getting what I want. I would say $200-250 is the maximum reasonable amount. I am not looking for a collectors piece and do not want one. I want something that can take an edge and a beating.

Originally Posted by cosperryan

One thing nobody has said is how do you know if the steel has a good heat treat. I mean I have never seen any mention of this when looking for knives. The closest thing I have seen is a hardness rating. .

If a maker or company can't get the HT right they would not be in the business.
All big players, Spyderco, Benchmade, Kershaw etc have the HT down pretty good.

Originally Posted by mainaman

If a maker or company can't get the HT right they would not be in the business.
All big players, Spyderco, Benchmade, Kershaw etc have the HT down pretty good.

Well yes I figured as much. I was kinda saying so that someone would say what you did. Because everyone was bringing up heat treat saying that if the steel is good but the heat treat is bad then it doesn't matter. But if its accepted that the major makers have good heat treat then bringing up that point is kind moot.

Originally Posted by mainaman

If a maker or company can't get the HT right they would not be in the business.
All big players, Spyderco, Benchmade, Kershaw etc have the HT down pretty good.

All good makers IMO, Spyderco's being the one I have more experience with. And a heat treat I trust. I've had two knives with VG-10 and the Spyderco held a sharp edge longer than the "other" company's knife cutting the same material. This is important I think. No scientific testing, just everyday use and paying attention to the edge retention. I also have recently been interested in the traditional pocket knives like I grew up with. Those were Case, Old Timer, Schrade, etc. I have my eye on a GEC knife right now that's similar to a stockman. #68 but I don't remember the model name. Anyway, it has 1095 which with a good heat treat is a pretty good option for the traditional pocket knife options it seems. They don't seem to go for the more "super steels" that Spyderco and some other's play with. That's one thing I really love about Spyderco knives. Their eagerness to use superior steels for the blades on production knives. They also seem to keep the prices relatively acceptable. Acceptable depending on my checking account balance.

All my life I loved pocket knives and always had one or two. I was always unhappy with the edge retention however but never looked into getting better quality knives. Now I wish I had. Any younger folks out there I'd suggest looking into spending possibly $100 (or more) on a good knife or two. You don't HAVE to spend that much but it's nice to be open to the possibility so you can get the knife you want. Not the knife you can afford. Save a little if you need to. BTW, I should take my own advice. That's if you haven't done it yet. I normally spent between $10 and $25 for one pocket knife between the years of 1976 and 2005. During those years if I used my pocket knife more than 3 or 4 times (which was about every day) the nice edge I put on it was GONE. They all needed a touch up every night to keep me in a sharp pocket knife all the time. The better blade steels AND A GOOD SHARPENING JOB result in edge retention 4 times (approx.) what I have lived with all my life. When you sharpen make sure you remove all burrs. They can result in poor edge retention quicker than a poor blade steel. If you can keep the burrs off your edges even the lower quality steels will hold an edge longer. Big topic there so I'll shut up now.

I've never had a knife with a botched heat treat from a reputable manufacturer. However, the hardness is a variable with heat treat (the only one was a no name "Pakistan" knife). The same steel may be taken to 61 RC at one and 58 RC at another company. This will create a slight difference in toughness and edge retention. I've barely noticed the difference in actual use, so it's not important to me.