Thread: Viking sword documentary

"My most general comment is that human beings are keen observers and intelligent regardless of the Era in which they live or the crafts they pursued. What we assume about their knowledge and ability is sometimes a dangerous arrogance. "
Mike Blue

+1,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Not a metallurgist or blacksmith, but I remember watching and enjoying that video! And I like 32t's quote above. Archaeologists have found evidence of utterly astonishing technologies and engineering feats from thousands of years ago.

Originally Posted by ScoutHikerDad

Not a metallurgist or blacksmith, but I remember watching and enjoying that video! And I like 32t's quote above. Archaeologists have found evidence of utterly astonishing technologies and engineering feats from thousands of years ago.

The quote was from Mike Blues previous post.

It's certainly very interesting to see a non blacksmith teach mike blue about tamahagane or how swords are made...

I should call howard clark and tell him to take notes so that he might learn something. ....

Originally Posted by Bruno

It's certainly very interesting to see a non blacksmith teach mike blue about tamahagane or how swords are made...

I should call howard clark and tell him to take notes so that he might learn something. ....

Now now, I know very well I was biting off more than I could chew. I also knew that Mike Blue is a blacksmith. Enjoying and learning from this conversation is not a crime I hope.

No but it is generally not a good idea to post Wikipedia style verbose explanations on a subject that you don't have hands on experience in, to people who are subject matter experts.

That is not really about learning but more about showing off in a trivia contest.

I really don't want to be rude but when i see someone without experience trying to 'explain ' things to someone who is a recognised and experienced sword smith, who has learned from Japanese masters and who himself has taught seminars on sword making , who has visited the tamahagane smelters in japan and who has a good relationship with a tatara master and who has smelted tamahagane and taught seminars on that as well...

That comes off as extremely presumptuous. That would be like me trying to explain to Arnold schwarzenegger how to do bodybuilding.

Learning is done by looking, reading, doing and experimenting. Not by trying to show to the experts how much you have read.

Originally Posted by Bruno

No but it is generally not a good idea to post Wikipedia style verbose explanations on a subject that you don't have hands on experience in, to people who are subject matter experts.

That is not really about learning but more about showing off in a trivia contest.

I really don't want to be rude but when i see someone without experience trying to 'explain ' things to someone who is a recognised and experienced sword smith, who has learned from Japanese masters and who himself has taught seminars on sword making , who has visited the tamahagane smelters in japan and who has a good relationship with a tatara master and who has smelted tamahagane and taught seminars on that as well...

That comes off as extremely presumptuous. That would be like me trying to explain to Arnold schwarzenegger how to do bodybuilding.

Learning is done by looking, reading, doing and experimenting. Not by trying to show to the experts how much you have read.

I'm sorry I gave that impression with my answers. But I don't know where I tried to explain something to Mike Blue, assuming he did not know it already and better than me.
I did learn from all this, that bog ore is indeed the form of soil I saw and mentioned above, as well as the really smart idea to both heat their place and produce iron, the fact about modern contaminated alloys which is indeed very serious, and, that I didn't understand and that I have no idea about these monastery made Frankish swords. I still can't find information about them despite of them being so high quality unlike wootz where pretty much everyone who works with steel have heard it.
I was mistaken with tamahagane and I won't edit my answer, because on one hand, any future readers might get confused by the wrong facts I have written, but me being mistaken and corrected is the right flow of the conversation, and the above explanation that corrected me is very well written. It's been a few years since I last read about it, and after righting about it I spend a few hours researching about it; Mike Blue was indeed right.
For the rest of the conversation, it boils down to me underestimating the European swords and old blacksmiths, and overestimating wootz, with Mike Blue showing me that I am mistaken.
The "story" started when I saw the video of comparing wootz with Game of thrones "Valyrian steel" that I disliked, since they compare an actual historic thing with movie stuff because they are popular. Needless to say, I bear no ill will to Mr. Leatherstockiings, in fact I thank him for sharing it. I don't know where I was "verbose", I was explaining it because of my own lack of knowledge in English terminology. I also don't know where I was forward enough to be considered rude, that or needed permission for something.
My turn now, I strongly dislike the fact that, because someone is a true master, us common folk have no right to talk, ask or answer. In worst case scenario, a PM from Mr. Mike Blue if I offended him would be more than enough for me to stop writing. So, I'm sorry I offended every single blacksmith of the planet, including you. Feel free to share it with other knowledgeable blacksmiths like Mr. Howard Clark and have a good laugh if that's the way I atone for it.

I sent a PM in response to yours Vasilis. The key to unlocking the door to my world is that you have worked at making some of your own blades. If you did that without any help there are several aspects about you worth encouraging. Your enthusiasm does you credit.

Working in the close proximity to fire helps to develop a thick skin and you have not come close to any offensive areas for me anyway.

Start a notebook, or journal and collect all that you are learning. It's good for me to look back once in a while and read things when I thought I knew something. There is so much to learn about iron and carbon that a lifetime is not enough. And yet, there are all the wunderstahls and unobtanium types of metals that seem to breed faster than vermin, and it seems impossible to keep up with the marketeers let alone study a wonderful material and get to know it.

Someday maybe you and I will get to be in the same place and breathe the same air, likely as Bruno will in a few weeks with a hundred other steel addled crazies. All this will seem silly then.

J. E. Rehder: The Mastery and Uses of Fire in Antiquity.

Ok perhaps some context is in order. One of the many things mike taught me is to let the hammer do the talking. We have had a number of people in the past who don't actually make things or razors but love to show the world what they know.

I admit i was perhaps too quick to form my reply. Because my first reaction to your post was 'dear lord we have another talker' whigh is really nit fair to you

When mike introduced me to some friends of him he insisted i bring my razors along because those people judge you by what your hammer tells them, not by your words because anyone can talk a nice talk.


My apologies if I misjudged you. By all means share your thoughts and also share your experiences and show your work and let your hammer talk

Originally Posted by Bruno

Ok perhaps some context is in order. One of the many things mike taught me is to let the hammer do the talking. We have had a number of people in the past who don't actually make things or razors but love to show the world what they know.

I admit i was perhaps too quick to form my reply. Because my first reaction to your post was 'dear lord we have another talker' whigh is really nit fair to you

When mike introduced me to some friends of him he insisted i bring my razors along because those people judge you by what your hammer tells them, not by your words because anyone can talk a nice talk.


My apologies if I misjudged you. By all means share your thoughts and also share your experiences and show your work and let your hammer talk

Bruno,
To a degree, you are right. I don't have experience forging. Hardening a few blades is all the "experience" I have, and I've never uploaded any photos of finished blades because mine are just stock removal razors, yours is art.
But I do polish swords and have gone to seminars under actual masters. I have removed plenty of tama-hagane? rust, polished plenty of bad quality tamahagane, as well as extraordinary good. The same with a lot of Chinese made ones, good and... stainless wall hangers, as well as Europeans including Wilkinson blades and Eastern, like an Ottoman wootz kilij by which I was impressed on how sturdy the blade is, with excellent distal taper, and being flexible but not too much. I'm now in the process of re-polishing a China made custom Japanese sword, shobu zukuri, clay tempered, but now I'm intimidated to upload the photos when I finish it, since, again, there is definitely someone better than me here too and I don't want him to tell me again the above. The title wouldn't be "how to" and I would discourage people from sharpening/polishing quality swords by themselves, a lot of swords I polished were just to restore the damage done by people who think they can do it.
Of course, both you, Mike and Howard know a whole lot more than me. Heck, I still remember about an article I read more than 10-12 years or so ago about an L6 bainite sword from Mr. Howard Clark, and I've been wanting to get one ever since. I don't participate in conversations about forging aside from leaving "thank you" for that reason, no experience whatsoever.

It's the historical context that interests me, and true, I might have overdone it, but the thread is mostly about history. A good blacksmith doesn't have to be a good historian. It turns out Mike is, and I wanted to hear his opinion on a lot of things. I just added more and more to my answers until it became painful for the actual blacksmiths to read it.
I do intend to start actual forging simple high carbon, but even a good anvil is really expensive.
So, in the end you were right but I wasn't trying to show off, the worst thing I did I guess was the construction of Japanese swords that I only have experience polishing while you have experience forging.