Thread: The Stub-Tailed Shavers

Originally Posted by Voidmonster

Of those, only the razor stamped "6 {peppercorn symbol} Z" is likely to be Sheffield-made. Probably 1760-1770.

Unfortunately, pipe marks were extremely common, varied, and international. My guess is that the pipe marked razor and the ivory scaled razor with the crown and PM were both made in Sweden around 1780, but the PM razor is so strange I have little confidence. Maybe it was German? Probably not French.

However, the 'VIA' razor probably is French, and I would guess late 1700's to early 1800's. OR, if the tail has a distinct 'trigger' shape, probably London made around the same time frame.

For English razors, we rely almost entirely on published directories for information. Of the 4 known directories published before 1800, only one is easily available (Gales & Martin, which you can find on Google Books here -- this is a scanned copy of the 1887 reprinted edition, which includes a preface that's full of useful information). That was published in 1787 and some of the marks it collects went back a ways and others were newer.

The one directory prior to that was Sketchley's, from 1774.

To the best of my knowledge, there are no easily available copies of it. I have photographs of the two pages dedicated to razors, but often manufacturers made multiple types of goods and were not always listed where you'd think to find them. Marks like "6{peppercorn}Z" were typical of file makers and scissorsmiths, but they were used on all sorts of steel goods.

And that brings us around to two separate but related problems with Sketchley's.

First, the marks it recorded were often wrong. Ann Rowland's mark is listed in Sketchley's as a"R {heart} AIN". Her mark was actually "R {heart} SPAIN". I've seen numerous others from Sketchley's that are similarly misprinted or just wrong.

Second, there's no way to search for symbols other than just reading through the whole work, and when those symbols are often misrepresented, matters get especially difficult.

Supposedly there is a 1737 Sheffield directory, but no one in Sheffield had seen it at the time of the reprinting of Gales & Martin and to the best of my knowledge it has never come to light.

There are, of course, also the Cutler's Company's records of apprentices and masters, but those don't include marks. And while Volume II of the History does include a scant few very early cutlers marks, it doesn't have a comprehensive listing. Volume I (which isn't available in scanned form), is mostly a narrative of the Company's history, and I haven't had a chance to get my physical copy restored in order to safely read it.

Without knowing the city of origin, I'm afraid old razors like these will remain a mystery.

In regard to the 6 pepper corn z I feel you're on par. But to say the crown over PM isn't a Sheffield is to say it's pre 1733 , because the Crown was a definitive mark of Sheffield, Anchor was Birmingham, 3 Tower Castle was London. They were considered so in 1733. Somebody out there who can show me a picture of the page showing differently?? That's my challenge 😀

Originally Posted by Hillbillystixnstraights

In regard to the 6 pepper corn z I feel you're on par. But to say the crown over PM isn't a Sheffield is to say it's pre 1733 , because the Crown was a definitive mark of Sheffield, Anchor was Birmingham, 3 Tower Castle was London. They were considered so in 1733. Somebody out there who can show me a picture of the page showing differently?? That's my challenge 😀

So all the cutlery with a crown comes from Sheffield?

Originally Posted by Hillbillystixnstraights

In regard to the 6 pepper corn z I feel you're on par. But to say the crown over PM isn't a Sheffield is to say it's pre 1733 , because the Crown was a definitive mark of Sheffield, Anchor was Birmingham, 3 Tower Castle was London. They were considered so in 1733. Somebody out there who can show me a picture of the page showing differently?? That's my challenge 😀

I think you're confusing silver hallmarks with markings of cutlers. Using those hallmarks (anchor, lion, castle etc.) to define a location only applies to silver pieces.

Edits:

As an example, here is an anchor from William Sutton in Sheffield, from the Sketchley 1774 directory:



And of course there are some crowns and anchors to be found in the French stampings:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/attac...ttelleraux.jpg

Between 1809 and 1980 in Thiers France only there are over 1700 registered marks that have a crown. Not including the Chattelleraux plate that ScienceGuy just posted...

Posted this in the 1700s show. Any ideas. ?

Sold as 1700s razor.

I can tell it's been rescaled although looks like it's been some time since that was done. some one did a poor job trying to add jimps to the top and bottom. Other than that slight shoulder and small monkey tail.

Thoughts? 1700s?

Originally Posted by ItalianJoe

Posted this in the 1700s show. Any ideas. ?

Sold as 1700s razor.

I can tell it's been rescaled although looks like it's been some time since that was done. some one did a poor job trying to add jimps to the top and bottom. Other than that slight shoulder and small monkey tail.

Thoughts? 1700s?

These are my thoughts, but they are just thoughts. The scales are French style, but probably later. The mark looks like a lot of French type marks but I wouldn't know without seeing a reference somewhere. I imagine jimps are original. It's seen a bit of regrinding. My (un-supported) hunch would be post-1800 French, leaning toward a few decades after.

Originally Posted by ScienceGuy

These are my thoughts, but they are just thoughts. The scales are French style, but probably later. The mark looks like a lot of French type marks but I wouldn't know without seeing a reference somewhere. I imagine jimps are original. It's seen a bit of regrinding. My (un-supported) hunch would be post-1800 French, leaning toward a few decades after.

I would agree with you. It looks like someone has done some work to it. I couldn't find anything on the maker. But the mark looks very familiar to me. This one may take some research.

Originally Posted by ItalianJoe

I would agree with you. It looks like someone has done some work to it. I couldn't find anything on the maker. But the mark looks very familiar to me. This one may take some research.

Are you a member on any of the French sites? They will probably be more helpful.

Le Retour du Coupe Chou :: Le Forum du Rasage au Coupe-chou, Rasoir Custom et Kamisori
http://coupechouclub.cultureforum.net/

Charlie (he's on here as well) is very knowledgeable.

Originally Posted by Martin103

Between 1809 and 1980 in Thiers France only there are over 1700 registered marks that have a crown. Not including the Chattelleraux plate that ScienceGuy just posted...

Hey guys,I'm not trying to doubt anyone, nor discredit anyone's ability to find the information. In truth, in the research I my brother have committed ourselves to do, have found this to be true (The fact of the 1733 information) to the best of our ability,INCLUDING presently being in contact with the Curator AT the Company of Cutlers in Hallamshire, England who has also confirmed this point. AND it is also posted as a basis to dissolve a disagreement right here on S.R.P. 😣 WHAT is it? 😕I'm not asking for suggestive opinions,I can get that at the barber shop, I thought it would be AWESOME to have you guys join Me on My search of the Historical Truth, pics of plates,(With no names I might add ) Why won't y'all put your brilliant abilities together and be part of the solution?? Not confusion, chaos, etc.....

Originally Posted by Hillbillystixnstraights

Hey guys,I'm not trying to doubt anyone, nor discredit anyone's ability to find the information. In truth, in the research I my brother have committed ourselves to do, have found this to be true (The fact of the 1733 information) to the best of our ability,INCLUDING presently being in contact with the Curator AT the Company of Cutlers in Hallamshire, England who has also confirmed this point. AND it is also posted as a basis to dissolve a disagreement right here on S.R.P. �� WHAT is it? ��I'm not asking for suggestive opinions,I can get that at the barber shop, I thought it would be AWESOME to have you guys join Me on My search of the Historical Truth, pics of plates,(With no names I might add ) Why won't y'all put your brilliant abilities together and be part of the solution?? Not confusion, chaos, etc.....

Your the one that said thats my challenge, your comments dont exactly push me to spend a lot of time searching for you.
Post some good pics of all the razors you want to know about, tell us how and where you got them, that would help. Also i have a very plausible lead on your VIA razor.