Thread: Emerging Technologies to Consider for Straight Razors

Originally Posted by xChris

...I think there are a couple of emerging technologies that can be adapted to straight razors. Metal Injection Molding (MIM) could produce razor blanks with the grind already made in the blank; it would just need final honing to produce the shaving edge. H1 steel is a work-hardened steel that has no carbon in the composition. Nitrogen replaces the carbon in the metal to produce a truly rustproof steel...

Originally Posted by Namdnas

Chris, that is a most excellent idea. I didn't consider sintered or injected metal powder, as I don't know much about them and have no experience with them. So a few questions;

• What are the attainable material properties with an injection molded metal piece?
• Can they be made hard enough?
• Are they tough or brittle?
• Can the edge be cold worked or heat treated to increase the hardness on the final product?
• How about honing, any special concerns?
• Do MIM pieces take to INOX hardening? I have a suspicion that the conversion to martentite might be easier with something which is starting out without the well defined autentitic nodules in the base.

Again, this is a great concept, and certainly opens up the door to very interesting and complex designs similar to multi-grinds with little to no additional work except in the mold making. At that, the molds could be sintered metal produced in virtually any shape that a solid modeler could create.

Take care,
John

Here's the start of a thread to talk about some technologies that could be used to move straight razor manufacturing into the 21st Century. This discussion started in this thread about Solingen manufacturers looking at how to preserve the straight razor manufacture/industry in their city.

The two that I've proposed are Metal Injection Molding (MIM) & H1 steel. I'm going to start off with the MIM since John brought up a lot of good points about its consideration in the previously mentioned thread.

MIM is already being explored in the cutlery industry by mass-production companies to include Spyderco and Kershaw. In fact Kershaw already has a model on the market whose blade is manufactured using a MIM process (http://www.kershawknives.com/productdetails.php?id=370), and Spyderco will have one in the near future. The Kershaw uses 440C for the blade steel.

Here is my understanding of the process -- simplified & based on discussion with a Spyderco Representative. The process is very similar to plastic injection molding. The mold is actually 20% larger then the finished piece. A mixture of the molten steel & plastic are injected into the mold. The plastic is necessary to allow the product to be released from the mold after cooling. After removal from the mold, the piece is heat treated accordingly. This does three things: 1) hardens the steel 2) melts out the plastic from the piece 3) returns the piece to the expected size (reduced 20% by the removal of the plastic). The advantage of this process is that things like unique shapes or grinds can be molded right into the piece with no requirement of typical stock removal (e.g., wheel grinding machines). Final finishing of the piece is pretty much all that's left. I'm not sure if there are any special concerns with the final properties of the metal after the use of a MIM process. None have been mentioned, and it seems that the steel reacts as it would from more regualr production methods (e.g., forging, sheet steel w/stock removal). I am not in possession of one of the Kershaw knives, so I haven't used or sharpened one. I cannot comment on if their is a perceived difference myself.

Now, I'm just a knife knut & straight razor shaver. Please join in the discussion if you've got further information, a better understanding of these technologies, or can clarify these points.

John--
This may not answer all of your initial question right away, but I'll keep trying. Let me know what I missed...

Sintered boron carbide. The initial honing would be interesting, though.

Chemical Vapor Deposition of diamond. Honing-not possible

I am not sure if the molding will work, and create more benefits than traditional blank stamping. The razor will still need to be heat treated, and that is not possible on a thin blade. The present method works ok, and in my opinion, Solingen will not change this...

Nenad

Originally Posted by superfly

Chemical Vapor Deposition of diamond. Honing-not possible

I am not sure if the molding will work, and create more benefits than traditional blank stamping. The razor will still need to be heat treated, and that is not possible on a thin blade. The present method works ok, and in my opinion, Solingen will not change this...

Nenad

Would a diamond edge be worth shaving with, or would it simply be too abrasive? I want to cut the hair as opposed to abrading it (& the skin) with a harder element.

The heat treating causing warping is an interesting problem. How thin can a blade go before warping is a concern? Can a hollow ground even be considered prior to heat treatment? If so, maybe the final grinding would be something that required lesser level of skill than is currently required. I wonder if the debinding of the plastic in the piece would mitigate some of the problems with warping?

Speaking of New Technologies for the str8. Here is another possibility and I do not know how viable this is or if any company is doing this.

Ceramic knives blades have become very popular. They are extremely sharp but also very brittle. Ceramic is not malleable or ductile so it could not be honed or stropped, but they also do keep their edge for a very long time.

This as a technology that could be applied to straights? I think

But then again there is something about being able to hone and strop a blade that is very appealing to the shaving experience for most of the users on this forum.

Any change in technology should be seen as cost cutting or profit boosting not product improvement. Ceramic blades that hardly wear would be like Gillette going back to making the DE. Planned obsolesence is an important concept in the manufacture of everything these days from cars to coffee makers to pens.

Think how could a process make the blade better for it's purpose and there's a prayer, but thinking how will technology save this industry or what technology can do for our company tends to lead down the wrong path.

Ceramic would lend itself to a blade insert, more like a feather than a complete blade of it since it's so brittle and expensive.
MIM is promising, but Personally I don't trust molded metal in stress situations as there's little control over the grain of the metal, and a knife of any kind needs grain control for a good edge.

MIM is probabily going to have a large impact on many application in the future, but I don't know how soon the knife will be a serious contender. Even a major manufacturer (or two) of knives commercialising the process will not make the product better for the sake of the product, nor will it provide a guaranteed consumer acceptence.

IMHO, there seems to be a significant increase in intrest of straight shaving thus increasing the demand for new quality razors. If The makers in Solingen want to remain in the industry then quality must be maintained at all costs (improved, actually from some of the reports on some major players offerings...) and production should simply increase. There's not always a need to use newer technology just because it's available. Made in America did a segment on Cutco, the kitchen knife company. Their operation is amazing and that kind of technology should be standard throughout the industry so really production, or lack of supply seems more of a company management decision, a company not realising the demand, or a bottle neck in supply chains.
I know a razor is not a kitchen knife and production is different, but I question how different is it really?


Henry Ford was always behind the times with a model because he disliked change. The model T and model A ran with minor changes for such long times, but customers STILL bought them. GM had endless trouble with it's Northstar engines in the Cadillacs, and BMW and Mercedes Benz had major tarnishing on their image and reputation when their major technological advances in the cars had problems because technology was not in line with production or consumer demand.

Why not change the offerings to suit just as they used to in times of old.....the same blade at different price points based on the scales and acutrements. If the basic blade can be sold for $50 then they should do so, and make additional profits from the upfitting just as many other industries do. Smith and Wesson are a prime example- base gun can be sent throught their custom shop. Gibson guitars makes basic models and custom models.

Let someone looking for a basic razor get one cost reflective and someone wanting a custom inlayed and scripted blade do so as well.

I agree that razor production will most likely be status quo for some time. It will be easier to do it has it has been done than to invest in newer technologies, tooling, and equipment.

However, if the experience necessary to maintain the current manufacturing is lost, then new methods may be explored to bridge that gap. Of course, improving productivity while reducing costs will also drive modernization of processes & techniques. This is part of being a business.

I've been reading some more on MIM since opening this thread; I agree that the technologies and processes are probably not refined or mature enough to really satisfy the requirements. It will be interesting to see how production is maintained or increased in the near future by the current manufacturers.

Originally Posted by Justme-

... MIM is promising, but Personally I don't trust molded metal in stress situations as there's little control over the grain of the metal, and a knife of any kind needs grain control for a good edge....

I'm certainly no metallurgist, but what are the effects of a magnetic field? Could molding the metal under a strong magnetic field induce a grain in the metal?

-whatever

-Lou

Originally Posted by xChris

Would a diamond edge be worth shaving with, or would it simply be too abrasive? I want to cut the hair as opposed to abrading it (& the skin) with a harder element.

The heat treating causing warping is an interesting problem. How thin can a blade go before warping is a concern? Can a hollow ground even be considered prior to heat treatment? If so, maybe the final grinding would be something that required lesser level of skill than is currently required. I wonder if the debinding of the plastic in the piece would mitigate some of the problems with warping?

I believe the diamond coated edge can be made into a good shaver. Razor's edge has width of 3-4 microns across. If this sharp edge (steel, tungsten carbide, e.t.c.)is coated with several layers of nano-crystalline diamond particles. I think the edge will be as good as honed and stropped one, and much more durable. Rado, swiss watch maker, has already made one commercial model with this technology:
http://www.v10k.com/v10k/

As for the stamping, or injection molding, it is already done in some degree. If you take a look at the movie about DOVO factory, you can see the blades are hot-forged into blanks, with the hollow profile already in applied. I believe the edge at it's thinnest should be somewhere around 1/8 to 1/16 thick, to prevent warping. The guy at the DOVO factory is checking the blades after the heat threat, and hammering away any possible minor deformation.

I don't see any improving of the current process, other than making the final profile grinding fully automated, which will be done by CNC machines, and with greater precision, and diminished discards than present.

If DOVO or Boker need me, I want corner office, and company car...


cheers,
Nenad

I think that the biggest improvement will be in supporting the customer. The poor schmuck who bought a razor for which he thought was shave ready and an untreated strop which he thinks will use to sharpen his razor will have a negative experience and throw the razor into the deepest closet he can think of. A good system of customer support will do wonders for the uneducated consumer -- the beginning of a new customer base.