Thread: CLUE... "It was Hilliard, in the workshop, with a razor!"

I've been trying to pinpoint the date of manufacture for my Hilliard blade. Through the help of some fine folks on this forum, (many thanks), as well as some research on my own, and Robert Doyle's book on collecting... I have finally come up with a couple of clues that narrow down the window of time for the birthdate of this blade.

Milliard first showed up in the business registry of Edinburgh, Scotland... at 7 Nicholson St. in 1850, manufacturing surgical instruments. Prior to that he was in Glasgow from about 1830, or so. After sorting through numerous journals, period advertisements, etc. I have been able to see that Hilliard and/or his son(s) remained at 7 Nicholson St., doing business in the manufacture of surgical instruments from between 1850-1885. It was sometime between 1885-1895 that Hilliard left that address and the address was then taken over by Messrs & Son. I believe those folks were architects, but not positively sure.

So, now. We have a blade that could have been made anytime between 1850-1885, or so. I honestly doubt that the blade was made in 1850 (sigh), because it is a full hollow grind, slightly pushing the 'extra hollow' profile and the grinds appear to be pretty darned uniform from side to side. According to Doyle's book, the hollow grind was not perfected until 1885. The finish is also quite smooth with only faint signs of grind/polish lines. Just enough to give it a very subtle satin like grain finish. Judging by the data/info that I currently have, I'd have to say that this razor was 'probably' made between 1885-1895, but I'm also far from being an expert. If any of you folks have anything to add to this research, chime in and let me know what you've got. I'm not going to start on the scales until I'm fairly certain as to what they would have likely looked like at the proper period of time when this blade was made.

I have nothing to add historically. But I would like to say how much I like the shape of that blade. Is that a particular style? (barbers notch, Spanish point, square point, ect.......) I ask because I have seen some with a similar profile on the blade but not seen it described with a name attributed to the profile of the blade.

Originally Posted by JazzWillie

I have nothing to add historically. But I would like to say how much I like the shape of that blade. Is that a particular style? (barbers notch, Spanish point, square point, ect.......) I ask because I have seen some with a similar profile on the blade but not seen it described with a name attributed to the profile of the blade.

I'd say this is a French/Irish style blade according to diagrams that I have looked at. Might be wrong, but's really, really close if not.

What the heck - am I some sort of clot or something?

Most of this told you some while ago here - I say most, referring to the parts that bear a semblance to accuracy rather than fancy.

He was not from Scotland, being born in Sheffield - as I already told you/
He is on record in 1810. Besides, how can he first have showed up in Edinburgh when copious records already show him in Glasgow at a much earlier date?
'Messrs' is an abbreviation meaning simply 'misters' - there is no such thing as Messrs & Son. If I formed a company with someone called Johnson we would be Messrs Miller & Johnson. Get your facts straight!
Hilliard (Harvey) would have made surgical instruments, having been appointed as Surgical Instrument Maker & Cutler to the Queen. Damnedest coincidence, what?!
Census records I have read show that his son Frederick was his assistant (ie apprenticed to him) by at least 1871 and had gained his Freedom by 1881. Your razor only has the fathers name on it. The name was changed to Hilliard & Son when his son joined him, so the razor is from before 1881 - but I told you this already. So, your dating is erroneous.
Jean Jacques Perret in his seminal book L'Art du Coutelier dated 1771 shows a multitude of hollow grinds, making Doyle's statement a little unreliable at the best - being charitable, here!

If you don't pay any attention to FACTS what's the point in trying to educate you? Sheesh, as far as your future enquiries about razors are concerned than count me out.

As Guitstik would have it - 'Thanks a Freaking lot'.

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

What the heck - am I some sort of clot or something?

Most of this told you some while ago here - I say most, referring to the parts that bear a semblance to accuracy rather than fancy.

He was not from Scotland, being born in Sheffield - as I already told you/
He is on record in 1810. Besides, how can he first have showed up in Edinburgh when copious records already show him in Glasgow at a much earlier date?
'Messrs' is an abbreviation meaning simply 'misters' - there is no such thing as Messrs & Son. If I formed a company with someone called Johnson we would be Messrs Miller & Johnson. Get your facts straight!
Hilliard (Harvey) would have made surgical instruments, having been appointed as Surgical Instrument Maker & Cutler to the Queen. Damnedest coincidence, what?!
Census records I have read show that his son Frederick was his assistant (ie apprenticed to him) by at least 1871 and had gained his Freedom by 1881. Your razor only has the fathers name on it. The name was changed to Hilliard & Son when his son joined him, so the razor is from before 1881 - but I told you this already. So, your dating is erroneous.
Jean Jacques Perret in his seminal book L'Art du Coutelier dated 1771 shows a multitude of hollow grinds, making Doyle's statement a little unreliable at the best - being charitable, here!

If you don't pay any attention to FACTS what's the point in trying to educate you? Sheesh, as far as your future enquiries about razors are concerned than count me out.

As Guitstik would have it - 'Thanks a Freaking lot'.

Sorry Neil. I must have seriously missed something in the posts as well as what I've read online. I'm no expert, not even close. I'm not ignoring 'anything' that you said, just trying to soak in an awful lot of something I know nothing about in as little time as possible. I'll go back and re-read your responses to my questions. Please do not take offense to my ignorance. I don't mean any disrespect. I'm just trying to soak things in and figure out how to date antique razors. Am I not allowed a learning curve?

I see nothing posted that actually dates this razor. A very good history of Hilliard, but that's not what I currently seek. I'm not into the history of the Hilliard name, not for now. I'm simply trying to pin down the actual date of a single razor made by Hilliard. Sorry for the confusion.

"Tah-DUM".....Intermission folks!




We will be right back! And don't forget! We'll be here all week! "Tah Dum"

Originally Posted by TMJudd

I see nothing posted that actually dates this razor. A very good history of Hilliard, but that's not what I currently seek. I'm not into the history of the Hilliard name, not for now. I'm simply trying to pin down the actual date of a single razor made by Hilliard. Sorry for the confusion.

Twisting what Neil tells ya will get you farther from the actual production date, IMO. There is no way to pinpoint an actual production date of any old razor that I know of. Be happy to know what is avaliable and commit to understanding THAT in full. Should be quite enough to know. Always is for me, anyway! YMMV

Okay, I get it. I obviously stepped out of the beginners box a bit too soon. That's okay. I don't mind learning the hard way. Things typically stick with me better after being beaten into me!

Originally Posted by TMJudd

Okay, I get it. I obviously stepped out of the beginners box a bit too soon. That's okay. I don't mind learning the hard way. Things typically stick with me better after being beaten into me!

The production of most razors is a guessing game. The only clues are design factors and most importantly, maker's marks. The history of the people/familys is most important as things such as 'son', 'sons', location of sale or manufacture, partners, etc. often tell a ton about the timeline of a blade. These things were tools. Most are not commemorative editions(though some plainly are) and were not date-stamped. Even those with famous people's name and monarch stamps can be questionable as to close dating.
What is important is to do reserch, but also opposing research to find the best and most reliable tale of a particular maker and his family. Then apply it to the razor. Moving a razor to a date is futile. Moving a razor to a timeframe in a proper manner is something Neil excels at. He is faster and more thorough in his research than you or I can comprehend.
I always come up with my best, post it first, and let Neil graciously set me straight. Then, I begin to understand I am woefully ill equipped to do same, much less correct him. He is not always right, he corrects himself all the time as things move forward.
I always appreciate the added historical tidbits he finds and shares. Such as the other day when he shared that my razor's maker's grandfather watched the battle of Bunker Hill from a church steeple at the age of 14.
First thing I tell people about that particular razor!
Grumpy, sometimes. Stubborn, yep! Brilliant, always! Neil is a great asset to this forum and indeed, to myself!