Thread: Help for datation - Fox razor inside

Hello, Inoe!

I'll tell you what I can.

First off -- your razor almost certainly dates to 1780-1805. It was definitely reprofiled, and it could have been done at any time from the early 1800's to very recently. Later seems like a better bet, as that sort of work was usually done on old razors to clean the rust and pitting off. Complicating the identification a bit further -- it could have been made far enough outside Sheffield that its manufacturer wouldn't show up in any of the standard directories. There were cutlers producing very similar goods all over the UK in that time frame, with well-established guilds in Dublin and London as well as notable production in Birmingham.

I'm relatively certain your razor came from somewhere close to Sheffield at the very least.

Second, you've run into one of the great problems of researching English cutlers. They had about six names to share and expansive families. It makes it very, very difficult to figure out sometimes. You've got one good clue though. There is no trade mark on the blade. The Foxes of Fox & Norris used the mark you listed above. Joshua/William Fox had their own mark:



It's possible your razor originally had the 'c & dagger' mark on it, but it was on the lower portion of the tang and got ground off. It's also possible your razor was made by some other William Fox.

The apprentice registry lists a quite a few. Unfortunately, reading Leader's version of the apprentice registry is a bit of a learned skill, so I'll walk through the William Foxes who were apprenticed, and then talk about the whole apprentice system in old Sheffield.

1. William Fox, son of William Fox and ward of Prior Nabb, yeoman. He was first apprenticed to Joseph Heeley Ffernley, cutler, in 1636 for a term of 8 years, then apprenticed to Richard Base, cutler, in 1641 for 3 years. He did not complete either apprenticeship.
2. William, son of William, deceased. Apprenticed in 1650 to his father. He was freed in 1670 (beginning around then, things got sort of lax about who could do what, when, and often people were working regularly long before they were granted official freedom)
3. William, son of William, cutler, also deceased. Apprenticed to Robert Nicholls senior, cutler, in 1676 for a term of 9 years. He was freed in 1685.
4. William, son of Robert, laborer. Apprenticed to Thomas Goodin, awlbladesmith in 1676 (big parenthetical aside here: the awlbladesmiths made tools for punching holes in leather, and they were only very recently a recognized dedicated branch of the trade, and had only been admitted as such to the Cutler's Company THAT YEAR). Next apprenticed to William Brownell in 1677 for a term of 5 years, 8 months, which he did not complete. Presumably Brownell was also an awlbladesmith.
5. William, son of William, cutler, apprenticed to his father and freed in 1685 (and here's where these listings can get maddening, because multiple different people are listed on a single line here, but I'll separate them out).
6. William, son of Michael, cutler. Apprenticed to his father and freed in 1706.
7. William, son of William, cutler. Apprenticed to his father and freed in 1749.
8. William, son of William, filesmith. Apprenticed to his father and freed in 1749.
9. William, son of William of Sheffield Park, deceased. Apprenticed to William turner Lescar, whitesmith (someone who made goods from tin and /or pewter), AND a cutler (?), in 1700 for 9 years. Freed in 1709.
10. William, son of Stephen, cutler. Apprenticed to Thomas Rose, cutler, in 1736 for 5 years. Freed in 1740.
11. William, son of John, carpenter. Apprenticed to Robert Frost, cutler, in 1749 a term of 8 years, 6 months. Next apprenticed to John Hobson, cutler, for 8 years, 4 months. Also in 1749. Apparently he was a raw talent at failing class.
12. William, son of Gervas of Ashford-in-Water, miner, and deceased. Apprenticed to John Hall cutler of Owlerton, for 9 years beginning in 1751. He did not complete his apprenticeship.
13. William, son of William of Smalldale, Hope Valley (Bradwell, South West a bit from Sheffield), miner. Apprenticed to Joseph Norton, cutler, in 1752 for 8 years, 4 months.
14. William, son of Ann Walker Fox, also Smalldale. Apprenticed to George Wainwright, cutler, in 1777 for 7 years, 9 months. Then apprenticed in 1782 to Samuel Carnall, cutler of Ecclesfield. Looks like he didn't complete his apprenticeship either.
15. William, son of Sarah Fox, Bradfield Dale, widow. To William Frith of Hallam, table blade grinder (meaning he did the hard labor for making tableware, but did not make completed blades) in 1787 for a term of 7 years. Freed 1800. Apparently he got longer years.
16. William, son of Thomas, tailor. Apprenticed to Thomas Fox junior, knifemaker, in 1792, 8 years.
17. William, son of George, laborer of Green Hill. Apprenticed to Samuel Ellis, filesmith, in 1793, 8 years, 1 month.
18. William, son of George, filesmith of Bridgehouses (a town). Apprenticed to his father and freed in 1795.
19. William, son of William, farmer of Beauchief Abbey. Apprenticed to John Law, knifemaker in 1802, 7 years.
20. William, son of Thomas, schoolmaster of Norton. Apprenticed to George Mills, knifemaker, in 1803, 7 years.
21. William, son of Benjamin, laborer. Apprenticed to John Bolsover, knifemaker of Heeley in 1807 for 8 years, 5 months.
22. William, son of Stephen, sicklesmith of Troway. Apprenticed to his father and freed in 1810.

Like I said, unpacking these lists is a challenge. As an excellent general rule, assume that anyone not apprenticed to either a cutler or a razor maker would not have made razors. They learned the trade from the people who taught them. Filesmiths or scythe makers didn't also make razors -- the tools required for the work were very different. Also, grinders were considered a separate class of worker from the others, despite being integral to any finished product. Grinders also had the worst job, since the stones they worked on threw off an incredible about of lung-coating dust when they weren't exploding. Grinders lived MUCH shorter lives than the other tradesmen.

And that brings us to the mess that is the Sheffield apprentice system.

First, the term 'master' is a little muddy. A master was typically someone who owned a 'wheel', or workshop that produced goods. A little master was someone who acted basically as a shop foreman, organizing small crews.

The Master Cutler was a member of the guild, elected fresh every year, whose main job seems largely to have been to oversee feasts in honor of the guild. So a master and the Master Cutler weren't the same thing. In fact, there were a number of Master Cutlers who weren't actually cutlers, but instead dedicated to some other branch of the trade.

In theory, the Cutler's Company had very clear rules.

A freeman (one who has completed his apprenticeship) could take one apprentice. The term of apprenticeship in most of the cutlery trades we're concerned with was about 7 years. At the end of that time, if the apprentice had done his work, he would be granted his freedom and could stamp his mark on goods.

In practice, it was a LOT messier than that.

Throughout the 1700's, record keeping and enforcement of guild laws became very lax, largely benefiting the senior members of the guild. By the late 1700's, the bulk of the working cutlers were regularly getting screwed over by the higher ups of the Company and they petitioned Parliament to force changes on the group. The rules by which people got elected to various posts changed, supposedly to bring in more working men. In practice the wealthy found new ways to shut them out. In 1815, as a result of the continued problems, Parliament revoked the Company's charter to control who could and could not strike marks and the Cutler's Company became largely ceremonial.

In summary, it's REALLY hard to say who made your razor, but I'm pretty confident in saying it was made between 1780 and 1805.

OMG... It's dinner time here so I can't write much but THANK YOU !

I suppose that's what you call an answer...

My thanks as well, Zak!

As you can see, inoe, if you ask Zak something about old razors (English in particular) the whole monty is forthcoming!

First, sorry for the delay... it seems I have less free time during holidays than regular work time...

I noticed that you really shortened the estimated period: 1780-1805. What makes you think it can't have been made before 1780 or after 1805 ? Why these particular dates ?

I read (and read again) everything you wrote and tu sum up (correct me if I'm wrong):
- it could have been made in Sheffield or not, although chances are in favor to Sheffield
- it has been made by a razor maker named W. Fox, between 1750 and 1810
- until 1815, you had to be freed to have your name stamped on an item

So, in the Sheffield apprentice registry, from 1641 to 1810, we have 22 William Fox.
Among them, 11 didn't finish their apprentice (#1, 4, 11, 12, 13, 14, 16, 17, 19, 20 and 21).
Among the 11 left, only 6 had a cutler as a master (#3, 5, 6, 7, 9 and 10), 1 apprenticed to his father (unknown).
Among these 7 apprentices, only (probably) two could have made that razor after 1780: #7 (freed in 1749) and #10 (freed in 1740). Before #10, we have #6 (freed in 1706) who would have been ~90 yo in 1780 (I suppose apprenticeship usually ends around 15 yo).
Among these two guys, what are the chances both of them became razor maker ? Were there more knike makers than razor makers during the 18th century ?

So:
- IF my razor was made in Sheffield,
- IF the maker's name is really W. Fox,
- IF he finished his apprenticeship and is found in the apprentice registry,
what are the chances the maker isn't William Fox, son of Stephen, freed in 1740, who died in 1769 ?

So, I ask my first question again: what make you think this razor wasn't made before 1780 ?

I have NO idea, BUT, if this William fox died in 1769, he would have been about 45 as he passed (being 15 as-freed in your estimation). It would seem he worked from way before 1780. Therein lies experience in the style of the razor, educated guess at it's original configuration. Things which suggest a 'period' to place it in. I do know that before early 1800's things seem to get sketchy from what I read of other's research. In that regard, it could very well be what you want it to be until you find something which steers you another direction. I have a few like that!

Originally Posted by inoe

I read (and read again) everything you wrote and tu sum up (correct me if I'm wrong):
- it could have been made in Sheffield or not, although chances are in favor to Sheffield
- it has been made by a razor maker named W. Fox, between 1750 and 1810
- until 1815, you had to be freed to have your name stamped on an item

So:
- IF my razor was made in Sheffield,
- IF the maker's name is really W. Fox,
- IF he finished his apprenticeship and is found in the apprentice registry,
what are the chances the maker isn't William Fox, son of Stephen, freed in 1740, who died in 1769 ?

So, I ask my first question again: what make you think this razor wasn't made before 1780 ?

First off, my estimation of when it was made is based purely on the experience of seeing lots and lots of these old razors. I could very easily be wrong, and in fact I often find myself coming across something that forces me to revise my ideas of when any particular style was made. It's all maddeningly imprecise!

Basically though, many of the razors I've seen from before roughly 1780 have a pronounced dip in the spine towards the point of the blade, like this:



The razor at the top of the picture has the dip I'm talking about. It's not one of the more obvious examples, but it's the only one I have at hand right now. Also, the Wolf razor should be from about the same time as your razor. Obviously, the difference in time between the two styles is fairly short and there was almost certainly overlap in the production of them.

As for which of the many William Foxes listed it might be, it's a good question without any kind of satisfying answer. It is entirely possible that this William Fox was sufficiently well connected to make his own goods without completing an apprenticeship. His father may have been very wealthy and he inherited the workshop and the mark and simply kept employing men to make the same goods (and if that's the case, he might well be the son of the William Fox who died in 1769) That sort of thing is one of the reasons that the working men of the Company went to parliament.

I wish I could give you better answers, but the records this far back are very spotty.

As for whether or not it was made in Sheffield -- I think the chances are very good, but at this point I've seen enough evidence of quality goods being produced a little outside the usual area that I don't want to assume that %100.

Unfortunately, I cannot find the pictures now, but I've seen another Fox razor from this period that had the maker's name embossed into the washers. It's the only one like it that I've ever seen.

Thank you for your messages, gentlemen.

I'm kinda disappointed but you warned me before, Zak:

it's REALLY hard to say who made your razor

I read about that dip before but wasn't aware this was so significant...

About the registered marks, may I ask where you found the Fox ones ? Was it particularly uncommon to see razors without any (from a maker who had one) ?

And if you find that other Fox razor, i'm interested in seeing it.

Thank you again for your time and knowledge sharing.

Originally Posted by inoe

About the registered marks, may I ask where you found the Fox ones ? Was it particularly uncommon to see razors without any (from a maker who had one) ?

And if you find that other Fox razor, i'm interested in seeing it.

Thank you again for your time and knowledge sharing.

The marks owned by Fox & Norris come from the 1786 Gales & Martin directory, which you can find here.

The Fox razor with the elaborate pin collars is somewhere here on SRP, but I couldn't find it with searches. Maybe in the 1700's Club or Stub Tail Shavers club?

I'm glad to help out! This stuff is fun for me.

Originally Posted by Voidmonster

The marks owned by Fox & Norris come from the 1786 Gales & Martin directory, which you can find here.

The Fox razor with the elaborate pin collars is somewhere here on SRP, but I couldn't find it with searches. Maybe in the 1700's Club or Stub Tail Shavers club?

I'm glad to help out! This stuff is fun for me.

Some further elaboration of Fox & Norris together with more marks of Fox & Norris!
https://historyrazors.wordpress.com/...norris-p-more/

inoe, after lots of I finally got it!

W. FOX is the trademark of Samuel Fox, F1789, son & apprentice of William Fox (F1749).
William Fox belonged to another family than the 3 Fox brothers, know as "Fox & Norris".
(maybe long before this they were family...)

William (F1749, (†1791) was the son of Joshua Fox F1723
(who was apprenticed to his father William),

Their (I assume of William, father Joshua, maybe William Sr. as well...) trade mark was:

FOX, beneath a reversed dagger (†), the blade being twisted like a cork-screw.

This would be (from 1787 Gales & Martin):



Thanks to From the margins | The Shivering Beggar here is the text of a certain version of
Reminiscences of Old Sheffield: Its Streets and Its People:, R.E. Leader.
(https://books.google.be/books?id=CR8...11&redir_esc=y)
(there are other versions with less information...):

"LEONARD : In reading pages 114 and 115 of this book, unless we bear in mind that there were two contemporary families of Fox in Westbar, we may get into confusion or jump to too hasty conclusions. Both were manufacturers, and their workshops, though not many yards from one another, were on opposite sides of the street. John Fox and Co., later Fox and Norris, were on the north, or Spring street side. This family descends from Stephen Fox, whose daughter Catherine married, November 19th, 1739, Matthew Norris, cutler and razor smith, of Westbar. He had sons, John, Stephen and William, born respectively in 1714, 1716 and 1719, and I presume it was the son of one of these who, in 1781, was in partnership with Samuel Norris, under the style of John Fox and Co. This John Fox died in 1793. The firm seem to have struck three different marks—P with a star (*) over it ; MATAS within a border, a heart at the side ; ROOM or ROME, with a Greek cross over it. The other family of Foxes, of West court, are descended from Joshua Fox, who having finished his apprenticeship to his father William, in 1723, was admitted to the Freedom of the Cutlers' Company, John Smith being Master Cutler. He would be a contemporary of Stephen Fox over the way—could they be brothers or cousins ? This was the man who, if family tradition may be trusted, took the celebrated journey to London, described on page 115. He too, like Stephen, had a son William, who took out his freedom in 1749. Their trade mark was the word FOX, beneath a reversed dagger (†), the blade being twisted like a cork-screw. William Fox died in 1791, and a valuation made by Mr. William Fairbank, May 11th, 1792, of his properties in Westbar, Scargill croft, " Gibralter," and Spring croft, still exists, and confirms my statement that Mr. Fox lived next door to Samuel Fowler. The annual rent of the one house is set down at £24, and the other at £17. The property was valued at a total of £2,346. 3s., and it, or some of it, still remains in the possession of the family. Two of William Fox's sons were apprenticed to him—Joshua, who took out his freedom in 1780, and whose trade mark was I. F—X. ; and Samuel, admitted 1789, his trade mark being W. FOX. Joshua must have died early, as, after the father's death, we find Samuel acting as head of the family and carrying on the business in partnership with his sister Ann, until her death in 1799, when she left all she possessed to him. The business seems to have died with him about the year 1815, but the workshops between New street and Westbar and West court still exist—most of them unoccupied."

So this razor is made by Samuel Fox, son of William Fox, made between 1789 – 1815!


Also readable at https://historyrazors.wordpress.com/...norris-p-more/