Thread: Help for datation - Fox razor inside

Beautiful razor, Inoe, and most excellent research. Your skills would be quite appreciated around here on a regular basis!
We have some great historians here and I feel certain they will comment on this.

It is interesting that as you find out more, it only seems to raise more questions. Names, family histories. Good stuff!

Thank you sharptonn

I have done similar searches for Rodgers razors and, man ! this was way easier... Big company, long history, well documented...

Here, it seems like when I think I have found something, two hours later it appears to be false... Or maybe finally true the next day...

It makes me look in every direction and that is really much more interesting.

Currently, I try to find out how the company of cutlers was organized (apprentices, freemen, masters, etc)... and things are not that easy...

For example: William Fox, son of Stephen, was apprentice to Thomas Rose, his master, and freed in 1740. And Thomas rose was made Master cutler in 1742 (source: http://www.cutlers-hallamshire.org.u...rs,%202011.pdf)... There is a confusion between master (of an apprentice) and the Master cutler, elected (by whom ?) every year:

There has been an annually elected Master Cutler since August, 1624, except during the two World Wars. There are a number of men who served more than one year, but in the early years, it is not possible to say whether the same name refers to the same person.

Was it possible to have apprentices as soon as you were freed ? Did you need to wait, to take some kind of tests, to be allowed by the company ? No idea... Could you stamp your name when freed ? No idea...

So many questions...

You are most welcome. Well deserved.

I have summoned Zak (Voidmonster) to this thread. Hopefully ScienceGuy will attend as well.
You should enjoy getting to know them, if you don't already!

Well, I have read some of their posts (I've been lurking a lot here before I registered...) and I'm very grateful you summoned them !

Maybe things will get clearer... or maybe we'll dig even deeper... Anyway, thanx a lot.

Hello, Inoe!

I'll tell you what I can.

First off -- your razor almost certainly dates to 1780-1805. It was definitely reprofiled, and it could have been done at any time from the early 1800's to very recently. Later seems like a better bet, as that sort of work was usually done on old razors to clean the rust and pitting off. Complicating the identification a bit further -- it could have been made far enough outside Sheffield that its manufacturer wouldn't show up in any of the standard directories. There were cutlers producing very similar goods all over the UK in that time frame, with well-established guilds in Dublin and London as well as notable production in Birmingham.

I'm relatively certain your razor came from somewhere close to Sheffield at the very least.

Second, you've run into one of the great problems of researching English cutlers. They had about six names to share and expansive families. It makes it very, very difficult to figure out sometimes. You've got one good clue though. There is no trade mark on the blade. The Foxes of Fox & Norris used the mark you listed above. Joshua/William Fox had their own mark:



It's possible your razor originally had the 'c & dagger' mark on it, but it was on the lower portion of the tang and got ground off. It's also possible your razor was made by some other William Fox.

The apprentice registry lists a quite a few. Unfortunately, reading Leader's version of the apprentice registry is a bit of a learned skill, so I'll walk through the William Foxes who were apprenticed, and then talk about the whole apprentice system in old Sheffield.

1. William Fox, son of William Fox and ward of Prior Nabb, yeoman. He was first apprenticed to Joseph Heeley Ffernley, cutler, in 1636 for a term of 8 years, then apprenticed to Richard Base, cutler, in 1641 for 3 years. He did not complete either apprenticeship.
2. William, son of William, deceased. Apprenticed in 1650 to his father. He was freed in 1670 (beginning around then, things got sort of lax about who could do what, when, and often people were working regularly long before they were granted official freedom)
3. William, son of William, cutler, also deceased. Apprenticed to Robert Nicholls senior, cutler, in 1676 for a term of 9 years. He was freed in 1685.
4. William, son of Robert, laborer. Apprenticed to Thomas Goodin, awlbladesmith in 1676 (big parenthetical aside here: the awlbladesmiths made tools for punching holes in leather, and they were only very recently a recognized dedicated branch of the trade, and had only been admitted as such to the Cutler's Company THAT YEAR). Next apprenticed to William Brownell in 1677 for a term of 5 years, 8 months, which he did not complete. Presumably Brownell was also an awlbladesmith.
5. William, son of William, cutler, apprenticed to his father and freed in 1685 (and here's where these listings can get maddening, because multiple different people are listed on a single line here, but I'll separate them out).
6. William, son of Michael, cutler. Apprenticed to his father and freed in 1706.
7. William, son of William, cutler. Apprenticed to his father and freed in 1749.
8. William, son of William, filesmith. Apprenticed to his father and freed in 1749.
9. William, son of William of Sheffield Park, deceased. Apprenticed to William turner Lescar, whitesmith (someone who made goods from tin and /or pewter), AND a cutler (?), in 1700 for 9 years. Freed in 1709.
10. William, son of Stephen, cutler. Apprenticed to Thomas Rose, cutler, in 1736 for 5 years. Freed in 1740.
11. William, son of John, carpenter. Apprenticed to Robert Frost, cutler, in 1749 a term of 8 years, 6 months. Next apprenticed to John Hobson, cutler, for 8 years, 4 months. Also in 1749. Apparently he was a raw talent at failing class.
12. William, son of Gervas of Ashford-in-Water, miner, and deceased. Apprenticed to John Hall cutler of Owlerton, for 9 years beginning in 1751. He did not complete his apprenticeship.
13. William, son of William of Smalldale, Hope Valley (Bradwell, South West a bit from Sheffield), miner. Apprenticed to Joseph Norton, cutler, in 1752 for 8 years, 4 months.
14. William, son of Ann Walker Fox, also Smalldale. Apprenticed to George Wainwright, cutler, in 1777 for 7 years, 9 months. Then apprenticed in 1782 to Samuel Carnall, cutler of Ecclesfield. Looks like he didn't complete his apprenticeship either.
15. William, son of Sarah Fox, Bradfield Dale, widow. To William Frith of Hallam, table blade grinder (meaning he did the hard labor for making tableware, but did not make completed blades) in 1787 for a term of 7 years. Freed 1800. Apparently he got longer years.
16. William, son of Thomas, tailor. Apprenticed to Thomas Fox junior, knifemaker, in 1792, 8 years.
17. William, son of George, laborer of Green Hill. Apprenticed to Samuel Ellis, filesmith, in 1793, 8 years, 1 month.
18. William, son of George, filesmith of Bridgehouses (a town). Apprenticed to his father and freed in 1795.
19. William, son of William, farmer of Beauchief Abbey. Apprenticed to John Law, knifemaker in 1802, 7 years.
20. William, son of Thomas, schoolmaster of Norton. Apprenticed to George Mills, knifemaker, in 1803, 7 years.
21. William, son of Benjamin, laborer. Apprenticed to John Bolsover, knifemaker of Heeley in 1807 for 8 years, 5 months.
22. William, son of Stephen, sicklesmith of Troway. Apprenticed to his father and freed in 1810.

Like I said, unpacking these lists is a challenge. As an excellent general rule, assume that anyone not apprenticed to either a cutler or a razor maker would not have made razors. They learned the trade from the people who taught them. Filesmiths or scythe makers didn't also make razors -- the tools required for the work were very different. Also, grinders were considered a separate class of worker from the others, despite being integral to any finished product. Grinders also had the worst job, since the stones they worked on threw off an incredible about of lung-coating dust when they weren't exploding. Grinders lived MUCH shorter lives than the other tradesmen.

And that brings us to the mess that is the Sheffield apprentice system.

First, the term 'master' is a little muddy. A master was typically someone who owned a 'wheel', or workshop that produced goods. A little master was someone who acted basically as a shop foreman, organizing small crews.

The Master Cutler was a member of the guild, elected fresh every year, whose main job seems largely to have been to oversee feasts in honor of the guild. So a master and the Master Cutler weren't the same thing. In fact, there were a number of Master Cutlers who weren't actually cutlers, but instead dedicated to some other branch of the trade.

In theory, the Cutler's Company had very clear rules.

A freeman (one who has completed his apprenticeship) could take one apprentice. The term of apprenticeship in most of the cutlery trades we're concerned with was about 7 years. At the end of that time, if the apprentice had done his work, he would be granted his freedom and could stamp his mark on goods.

In practice, it was a LOT messier than that.

Throughout the 1700's, record keeping and enforcement of guild laws became very lax, largely benefiting the senior members of the guild. By the late 1700's, the bulk of the working cutlers were regularly getting screwed over by the higher ups of the Company and they petitioned Parliament to force changes on the group. The rules by which people got elected to various posts changed, supposedly to bring in more working men. In practice the wealthy found new ways to shut them out. In 1815, as a result of the continued problems, Parliament revoked the Company's charter to control who could and could not strike marks and the Cutler's Company became largely ceremonial.

In summary, it's REALLY hard to say who made your razor, but I'm pretty confident in saying it was made between 1780 and 1805.