Thread: Help for datation - Fox razor inside

Originally Posted by inoe

I read (and read again) everything you wrote and tu sum up (correct me if I'm wrong):
- it could have been made in Sheffield or not, although chances are in favor to Sheffield
- it has been made by a razor maker named W. Fox, between 1750 and 1810
- until 1815, you had to be freed to have your name stamped on an item

So:
- IF my razor was made in Sheffield,
- IF the maker's name is really W. Fox,
- IF he finished his apprenticeship and is found in the apprentice registry,
what are the chances the maker isn't William Fox, son of Stephen, freed in 1740, who died in 1769 ?

So, I ask my first question again: what make you think this razor wasn't made before 1780 ?

First off, my estimation of when it was made is based purely on the experience of seeing lots and lots of these old razors. I could very easily be wrong, and in fact I often find myself coming across something that forces me to revise my ideas of when any particular style was made. It's all maddeningly imprecise!

Basically though, many of the razors I've seen from before roughly 1780 have a pronounced dip in the spine towards the point of the blade, like this:



The razor at the top of the picture has the dip I'm talking about. It's not one of the more obvious examples, but it's the only one I have at hand right now. Also, the Wolf razor should be from about the same time as your razor. Obviously, the difference in time between the two styles is fairly short and there was almost certainly overlap in the production of them.

As for which of the many William Foxes listed it might be, it's a good question without any kind of satisfying answer. It is entirely possible that this William Fox was sufficiently well connected to make his own goods without completing an apprenticeship. His father may have been very wealthy and he inherited the workshop and the mark and simply kept employing men to make the same goods (and if that's the case, he might well be the son of the William Fox who died in 1769) That sort of thing is one of the reasons that the working men of the Company went to parliament.

I wish I could give you better answers, but the records this far back are very spotty.

As for whether or not it was made in Sheffield -- I think the chances are very good, but at this point I've seen enough evidence of quality goods being produced a little outside the usual area that I don't want to assume that %100.

Unfortunately, I cannot find the pictures now, but I've seen another Fox razor from this period that had the maker's name embossed into the washers. It's the only one like it that I've ever seen.

Thank you for your messages, gentlemen.

I'm kinda disappointed but you warned me before, Zak:

it's REALLY hard to say who made your razor

I read about that dip before but wasn't aware this was so significant...

About the registered marks, may I ask where you found the Fox ones ? Was it particularly uncommon to see razors without any (from a maker who had one) ?

And if you find that other Fox razor, i'm interested in seeing it.

Thank you again for your time and knowledge sharing.

Originally Posted by inoe

About the registered marks, may I ask where you found the Fox ones ? Was it particularly uncommon to see razors without any (from a maker who had one) ?

And if you find that other Fox razor, i'm interested in seeing it.

Thank you again for your time and knowledge sharing.

The marks owned by Fox & Norris come from the 1786 Gales & Martin directory, which you can find here.

The Fox razor with the elaborate pin collars is somewhere here on SRP, but I couldn't find it with searches. Maybe in the 1700's Club or Stub Tail Shavers club?

I'm glad to help out! This stuff is fun for me.

Originally Posted by Voidmonster

The marks owned by Fox & Norris come from the 1786 Gales & Martin directory, which you can find here.

The Fox razor with the elaborate pin collars is somewhere here on SRP, but I couldn't find it with searches. Maybe in the 1700's Club or Stub Tail Shavers club?

I'm glad to help out! This stuff is fun for me.

Some further elaboration of Fox & Norris together with more marks of Fox & Norris!
https://historyrazors.wordpress.com/...norris-p-more/

inoe, after lots of I finally got it!

W. FOX is the trademark of Samuel Fox, F1789, son & apprentice of William Fox (F1749).
William Fox belonged to another family than the 3 Fox brothers, know as "Fox & Norris".
(maybe long before this they were family...)

William (F1749, (†1791) was the son of Joshua Fox F1723
(who was apprenticed to his father William),

Their (I assume of William, father Joshua, maybe William Sr. as well...) trade mark was:

FOX, beneath a reversed dagger (†), the blade being twisted like a cork-screw.

This would be (from 1787 Gales & Martin):



Thanks to From the margins | The Shivering Beggar here is the text of a certain version of
Reminiscences of Old Sheffield: Its Streets and Its People:, R.E. Leader.
(https://books.google.be/books?id=CR8...11&redir_esc=y)
(there are other versions with less information...):

"LEONARD : In reading pages 114 and 115 of this book, unless we bear in mind that there were two contemporary families of Fox in Westbar, we may get into confusion or jump to too hasty conclusions. Both were manufacturers, and their workshops, though not many yards from one another, were on opposite sides of the street. John Fox and Co., later Fox and Norris, were on the north, or Spring street side. This family descends from Stephen Fox, whose daughter Catherine married, November 19th, 1739, Matthew Norris, cutler and razor smith, of Westbar. He had sons, John, Stephen and William, born respectively in 1714, 1716 and 1719, and I presume it was the son of one of these who, in 1781, was in partnership with Samuel Norris, under the style of John Fox and Co. This John Fox died in 1793. The firm seem to have struck three different marks—P with a star (*) over it ; MATAS within a border, a heart at the side ; ROOM or ROME, with a Greek cross over it. The other family of Foxes, of West court, are descended from Joshua Fox, who having finished his apprenticeship to his father William, in 1723, was admitted to the Freedom of the Cutlers' Company, John Smith being Master Cutler. He would be a contemporary of Stephen Fox over the way—could they be brothers or cousins ? This was the man who, if family tradition may be trusted, took the celebrated journey to London, described on page 115. He too, like Stephen, had a son William, who took out his freedom in 1749. Their trade mark was the word FOX, beneath a reversed dagger (†), the blade being twisted like a cork-screw. William Fox died in 1791, and a valuation made by Mr. William Fairbank, May 11th, 1792, of his properties in Westbar, Scargill croft, " Gibralter," and Spring croft, still exists, and confirms my statement that Mr. Fox lived next door to Samuel Fowler. The annual rent of the one house is set down at £24, and the other at £17. The property was valued at a total of £2,346. 3s., and it, or some of it, still remains in the possession of the family. Two of William Fox's sons were apprenticed to him—Joshua, who took out his freedom in 1780, and whose trade mark was I. F—X. ; and Samuel, admitted 1789, his trade mark being W. FOX. Joshua must have died early, as, after the father's death, we find Samuel acting as head of the family and carrying on the business in partnership with his sister Ann, until her death in 1799, when she left all she possessed to him. The business seems to have died with him about the year 1815, but the workshops between New street and Westbar and West court still exist—most of them unoccupied."

So this razor is made by Samuel Fox, son of William Fox, made between 1789 – 1815!


Also readable at https://historyrazors.wordpress.com/...norris-p-more/

Great work guys! Leave no stone unturned. Shows what this community is all about.

In short, the Fox family even gave Leader fits trying to comb out their tangled names.

Originally Posted by Voidmonster

In short, the Fox family even gave Leader fits trying to comb out their tangled names.

Which is why we search for 3,5 year to resolve this puzzle!