Thread: Wade & Butcher Comeback

Originally Posted by Utopian

OK, Glock, I'm not a mentor (or apparently even "mentor like") but you can use me as one anyway. Do you know how to send a PM? Actually, do you know that means private message? If so, start sending me questions. If not, then we will start with that after I get some sleep. Actually, if you look at the tabs at the top of the screen, the second tab from the left is "Library" and just below that is "Private Messages." Click that an it is like an email system that you hopefully can figure out. We'll start from there. I'll do what I can to help you get sorted out.

Many Thanks for helping Ron


I have sent Glock27 a pm and will try and help him get his questions sorted out

Glock 27 you have a PM (Private Message) look up and to the right see the word "Notifications" the message link is there

Hope full justice is done to the name and reputation of the originals.
Rooting for their success

Selfishly I would like to see some of the original "hollow" grinds reappear (8/8 FBU, 7/8 celebrated, etc.). There is indeed a uniqueness in feel and shave with W&B razors....as is evidenced by a lot of the passion displayed in this thread. While it may not be the "good 'ol days" and the steel may not be the same, I still think this would be a unique offering in the market. There are a lot of great custom makers out there, but very few have really gone after that specific look and feel (though it is obviously a styling point for many). Anyways, we will see and I remain optimistinc that this will be a great thing for the community at large.

As for some of the feelings about dilution/value propositions for the vintage W&B blades, I just can't see any tangible movement happening here due to this entry to the market. The vintage blades are just that...and their supply is finite. Even the lowly W&B Special has seen an uptick in value as of late (I only say lowly because it is so similar to other blades of its era...I have one and love it), but I think this is due to the renewed interest overall in this shaving methodology, and is not isolated to a custom, vintage, or restored offering from anyone at this point. Framed that way, the resurrection of this brand could be a good thing for all of us as there is more and more interest in this hobby! It may drive prices up a bit...but hey...if we want to be 100% historically accurate we should all have invested in one quality razor and shave it into the dirt....

My favorite straight is a 6/8" pre 1881 W&B hollow grind. It just feels good to use! I have other W&B blades that aren't even close to straight & the spine is not even close to being the same width the length of the razor. I have fixed a couple of them & they shave great now. I Love the steel in English razors but find the German ground razors have better QC in general.
Back on subject! "Sorry!" Anyone can buy a name & right's to what ever. If these new W&B razors meet the quality of the vintage razors why worry about it?? I am related to the Mappin family. I just might look into buying that name when I start making razors in the near future. I am related, why shouldn't I use the name to help my business if I want to? I agree a lot of names have been bought up & junk from China been sold under a good old brand. Think United Cutlery. A new Schrade knife is not one made in the US. Not even close. The thing about China is they can make a product with the quality you want to pay for. I prefer not to buy products made in China but you can't help it any more.Live & let live. we are just talking straight razors here, not war or atomic bombs. let's lighten up!

Slawman

So long as it's being done by someone who cares and understands the value of that mark I'm hopeful. Besides, even if a suit were running it, all it would take is a modicum of research to see how utterly rejected a shambolic, cookie cutter operation of 5/8 or 6/8 hollow ground round points would be... Not that there is anything wrong with a vanilla blade, but that's not what you buy into with almost any sheffield maker.

Originally Posted by kcb5150

So long as it's being done by someone who cares and understands the value of that mark I'm hopeful. Besides, even if a suit were running it, all it would take is a modicum of research to see how utterly rejected a shambolic, cookie cutter operation of 5/8 or 6/8 hollow ground round points would be... Not that there is anything wrong with a vanilla blade, but that's not what you buy into with almost any sheffield maker.

To be fair, the cookie-cutter high throughput industrial operation was already done under the Wade & Butcher name.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/razor...tml#post458787

It didn't take either, it went to the same heap the other proprietary blade de went.... Actually, to be fair, the wade and butcher de was a clever piece. The blade was thick and rigid in a pre-curved curved format. I used to have one but no idea where it is. The Segal razor is the only de that takes a weird blade I can think of that survived awhile but their day job was locks and keys so there was a fall back.

I'm going to try an analogy here and see what people think. Not so many years ago there was a British car marque - Rover - that went bust. Up until the last few models it was classed as a premium make so the name itself held some value and ended up in China along with some plant, tooling and equipment.

If the Chinese owners of the marque were to introduce a modern vehicle, assembled in the PRC but badged as Rover, does that car have any link to the vehicles built in Britain? There may be a partial link in that some machine tools may still be turning out parts - but that's about it for me. The link has been broken because the company stopped trading and no-one involved in the original enterprise is involved.

So, here's how I see the W&B current proposal - as a company W&B has not operated or traded for many years. The plan to make custom blades, albeit with a W&B influence, in South Africa using Swedish Steel, is no more to do with Wade & Butcher than if you ask one of the USA craftsmen to make the same blade. The connection was lost when the company stopped trading, I can't see that stamping the name on a blade brings that connection back.

I hope no-one sees this as criticism of Michael's plans - it's certainly not meant that way.

Not all of them are ground sloppy or warped. I have encountered a fair number of Rodgers and Wostenholms that were really neat even after being honed by who knows how many different hands

Michael, it's really great to see you engaging with the history of the company.

And thank you Jimmy for posting the link to Tweedale's excellent history of the company.

There's apparently a lot of confusion over what the mark meant, what they did and how they did it. Here are a few important facts about the company and the mark which might help people. And Michael, if the owner has more of the story than this, I would love to know! I've been chasing this story for years now, and sources are thin on the ground!

Wade & Butcher was founded in 1815 by Robert Wade -- a businessman -- and William & Samuel Butcher, orphans who'd been apprenticed in the cutlery trade. Beyond that, little is known.

Razors was only one of many products they made, and in fact the main line of business for the Butcher brothers was steel refining -- which was largely done from Swedish ore, imported from Dannemora mine.

In 1825 Robert Wade died and his wife Jane took over his business concerns, which included manufacturing razors with only his name on them. Jane died in 1829 leaving two children (Robert and Jane Elizabeth) and the business.

The company of Wade & Butcher ended with the death of Robert Wade.

The <b>brand</b>however, had become sufficiently valuable that the Butcher brothers continued to use it. In fact, sufficiently valuable that Michael is bringing it back for razors! But the company ceased in 1825 and was completely rolled up in 1829.

Now it's important to understand some features of the old Sheffield production system.

Goods were made by small teams of men lead by a skilled worker called a Little Master. Because of the way the system worked (workers paid rent to their employers for tools, lighting, materials, etc -- and were sometimes paid partly or entirely in goods and not money), Little Masters and their crews were employed by several firms simultaneously.

They got work orders from their employers and they made they goods requested. Because there were a limited number of workshops and Little Masters, what this meant is that goods for one firm were quite regularly made in the workshops and with the materials of a completely separate firm. There were a few patented designs (Bennington Gill's frameback, purchased by Rhodes & Champion -- the Ragg's Plantagenet razor), but the vast majority of blade patterns were shared between companies, largely because they were the work of individual Little Masters or their grinders.

What individual companies owned were marks struck on the blades. IXL, Joseph Elliot's reversed C, cross, forward C, Barber's compass & angle, Shepherd's crown over WOLF -- those were the actual exclusive items. While there were some attempts to own slogans (John Barber quickly lost control of 'Old English' to everyone and their dog), those were open season. The same went for fancy blade etches. Since the work was often done by the same workmen for diferent companies, they just reused whatever they were tooled up for and struck the buyer's mark. (This went well beyond goods being made in factories of rival firms -- goods were often made and marked for foreign markets with no indication they'd been produced in Sheffield. Foreign, in this case means as close as London or as far away as New York.) There was no point in policing whose goods were made where because the workers paid rent on the workshop and materials, so the company got paid either way.

Back to Wade & Butcher.

In the early 1850's, Robert Wade's son Robert went to work for the Butcher brothers and moved to Philadelphia, where he acted as agent for the company. America is where the bulk of their business came from, and most of the other Sheffield firms had men on the ground out in the wild west. The Butcher brothers did the bulk of ther sales with salesmen, rather than advertising. At their peak, they were a large company but by no means the largest. That was George Wostenholm.

So there you have it. That middle section is really the most important for understanding what you're buying when you buy an antique Wade & Butcher (or any other old Sheffield razor for that matter). It's also worth noting that the (B)arrow(cross) mark was a late addition to the company's marks. As near as I can tell, it wasn't used until the late 1860's.