Thread: Wade and Butcher Irontusk

This is not the steels they are using , but a brief explanation of some powdered steels.

Powder-metallurgical knife steels — Sandvik Materials Technology

I would not assume anything as far as faulted metal, or production processes until that info is out. Just because its is a powdered metal
Does not mean they will be cast or processed in one way or another. It just means the steel was made using a different process at its source.

Im guessing that W & B will be receiving bar stock from the steel supplier. Powdered metal in blade steels usually means high tech stainless and expensive. Here's a little more info for those who are interested in the steels

DAMASTEEL - CUTTING EDGE. AND LOOKS TOO.

http://damasteel.se/files/2614/1104/...ion_RWL_34.pdf

Originally Posted by karlej

Not the traditional method of making a razor that's for sure. The powdered metal pours just like water. It is place in a die and compacted under up to 100's of tons of force in a piece of equipment called a compacting press. The razor will have the near finished shape and dimensions of the razor but very fragile at this point. You can break it in your hands, If you drop it. It will break like a piece of glass. Next it goes to a sintering furnace where the hardening will take place. Over 2000 degrees F. and gradually cooling down till it comes out the exit side of the furnace a hardened piece of steel. From there it may go to a sizing press where the blade would be place in a die and forced down into the die under up to 100 of tons of force and when ejected from the die it is very close to finished dimensions. Hardness will also have changed some. From there on to the grinding process. This type of equipment is very expensive and sintering furnaces cost a lot of money to run. Capital investment for a press can exceed easily exceed 1 million dollars. The advantage to all of this is you can turn out huge quantities of product very quickly.
I worked as a manufacturing supervisor in a powdered metal factory for 14 years. I think I'm too much of a traditionalist to buy a razor made from powdered metal.

Hi Folks,

There is some serious misinformation being given here on PM steels, and it would just be a very sad scenario if this incorrect info influenced peoples opinions even before our razors have been officially announced

I have no idea what the poster above (karlej) is talking about, and he certainly does not speak for us and our processes in making Wade & Butcher Razors...

PM steel (Powder Metallurgy steel) is simply steel produced by patented modern means resulting in a far more sophisticated and finely grained blade/knife steel. The steel boasts high cleanliness with no inclusions. It is received in sheet/strip form like any other knife steel and is worked from there using the stock removal method employed by many custom knife/razor makers. The heat treatment involves a triple temper with plate and cryogenic (sub-zero) quench, resulting in a HRC hardness of between 59-63. And, in the case of RWL34, the ability to produce a deep mirror-polish is second to none (many refer to the final look as 'liquid metal').

CPM154 is a PM steel.
CPM-S30V is a PM steel.
Bohler M390 is a PM steel.
Vanadis is a PM steel.

Many custom knifemakers use PM steels in their custom knives, including Todd Begg, Brian Tighe, Jens Anzo (Anzo knives), Allen Elishewitz, and many many others - the list is actually too long to include.

Damasteel (their patterned Damascus as well as their RWL34 steel) is the very same steel currently being used by Mastro Livi in many of his custom razors.

I'm actually quite surprised that other members who are knowledgeable about this rather straight-forward and reasonable choice of "Powder Metallurgy" steel have not chimed in to correct the blatant misinformation being conveyed in this thread..

Bottom line guys, PM steels like that produced by the highly acclaimed Damasteel in Sweden are not a strange choice for high-end handcrafted straight razors. In fact, the choice reflects a desire to produce goods using the very best and finest materials available for the desired outcome (fine grain structure, high polish-ability, exceptional fine-edge sharpness, high hardness etc.).

Cheers,
- Mike

Some Reading:
Powder Metal Steel | Bohler Uddeholm
An Introduction to Damasteel | BestPocketKnifeToday.com
Modern Steel Making Technologies

Originally Posted by AKmik

This is not the steels they are using , but a brief explanation of some powdered steels.

Powder-metallurgical knife steels — Sandvik Materials Technology

I would not assume anything as far as faulted metal, or production processes until that info is out. Just because its is a powdered metal
Does not mean they will be cast or processed in one way or another. It just means the steel was made using a different process at its source.

Im guessing that W & B will be receiving bar stock from the steel supplier. Powdered metal in blade steels usually means high tech stainless and expensive. Here's a little more info for those who are interested in the steels

DAMASTEEL - CUTTING EDGE. AND LOOKS TOO.

http://damasteel.se/files/2614/1104/...ion_RWL_34.pdf

PM technology is simply amazing.

Originally Posted by karlej

Not the traditional method of making a razor that's for sure. The powdered metal pours just like water. It is place in a die and compacted under up to 100's of tons of force in a piece of equipment called a compacting press. The razor will have the near finished shape and dimensions of the razor but very fragile at this point. You can break it in your hands, If you drop it. It will break like a piece of glass. Next it goes to a sintering furnace where the hardening will take place. Over 2000 degrees F. and gradually cooling down till it comes out the exit side of the furnace a hardened piece of steel. From there it may go to a sizing press where the blade would be place in a die and forced down into the die under up to 100 of tons of force and when ejected from the die it is very close to finished dimensions. Hardness will also have changed some. From there on to the grinding process. This type of equipment is very expensive and sintering furnaces cost a lot of money to run. Capital investment for a press can easily exceed 1 million dollars. The advantage to all of this is you can turn out huge quantities of product very quickly.
I worked as a manufacturing supervisor in a powdered metal factory for 14 years. I think I'm too much of a traditionalist to buy a razor made from powdered metal.

Investing in that production method does not seem suitable for use in producing a straight razor blade in the relatively limited numbers that there is a demand for. OTH if limited production runs of blades can be made can be made by an outside supplier between runs of other products that supplier produces it may be economically possible to do.

I too don't think it would be a satisfactory method of production for a traditionalist end user.

Bob

I should have read the whole thread before posting considering MichaelC's response.

Originally Posted by MichaelC

Hi Folks,

There is some serious misinformation being given here on PM steels, and it would just be a very sad scenario if this incorrect info influenced peoples opinions even before our razors have been officially announced

I have no idea what the poster above (karlej) is talking about, and he certainly does not speak for us and our processes in making Wade & Butcher Razors...

PM steel (Powder Metallurgy steel) is simply steel produced by patented modern means resulting in a far more sophisticated and finely grained blade/knife steel. The steel boasts high cleanliness with no inclusions. It is received in sheet/strip form like any other knife steel and is worked from there using the stock removal method employed by many custom knife/razor makers. The heat treatment involves a triple temper with plate and cryogenic (sub-zero) quench, resulting in a HRC hardness of between 59-63. And, in the case of RWL34, the ability to produce a deep mirror-polish is second to none (many refer to the final look as 'liquid metal').

CPM154 is a PM steel.
CPM-S30V is a PM steel.
Bohler M390 is a PM steel.
Vanadis is a PM steel.

Many custom knifemakers use PM steels in their custom knives, including Todd Begg, Brian Tighe, Jens Anzo (Anzo knives), Allen Elishewitz, and many many others - the list is actually too long to include.

Damasteel (their patterned Damascus as well as their RWL34 steel) is the very same steel currently being used by Mastro Livi in many of his custom razors.

I'm actually quite surprised that other members who are knowledgeable about this rather straight-forward and reasonable choice of "Powder Metallurgy" steel have not chimed in to correct the blatant misinformation being conveyed in this thread..

Bottom line guys, PM steels like that produced by the highly acclaimed Damasteel in Sweden are not a strange choice for high-end handcrafted straight razors. In fact, the choice reflects a desire to produce goods using the very best and finest materials available for the desired outcome (fine grain structure, high polish-ability, exceptional fine-edge sharpness, high hardness etc.).

Cheers,
- Mike

Some Reading:
Powder Metal Steel | Bohler Uddeholm
An Introduction to Damasteel | BestPocketKnifeToday.com
Modern Steel Making Technologies

Thanks for the updated information,
I think that answers many questions about what lies ahead.

If I'm understanding this right, there are two basic ways to do it, one to use PM to reduce waste steel to make a near-net-shape form and sinter it, and two to use PM to sinter into a bar to make a stock-removal razor (in which case you are using PM to get the bulk properties from the grain structure of the steel rather than aiming for a near-net-shape to save material, and it seems they are doing the latter). PM steel formulations and processes are well-understood and produce fine results. (I do materials science / engineering but am not specific to metallurgy). Sure, it's definitely not traditional Sheffield processes. Will it shave just fine? I'll bet.

Originally Posted by ScienceGuy

If I'm understanding this right, there are two basic ways to do it, one to use PM to reduce waste steel to make a near-net-shape form and sinter it, and two to use PM to sinter into a bar to make a stock-removal razor (in which case you are using PM to get the bulk properties from the grain structure of the steel rather than aiming for a near-net-shape to save material, and it seems they are doing the latter). PM steel formulations and processes are well-understood and produce fine results. (I do materials science / engineering but am not specific to metallurgy). Sure, it's definitely not traditional Sheffield processes. Will it shave just fine? I'll bet.

yes that's correct. In this case the PM steel is produced in strip form and supplied to us for stock-removal processing.

Can you imagine trying to form the razor into near-net-shape using expensive dies etc. That is quite a crazy assumption an earlier poster jumped to...

No, we simply receive the strip steel from Damasteel and grind away everything that isn't a straight razor, then heat-treat and finish-grind and polish..

These are high-end handcrafted precision shaving implements after all - not pre-formed items of cheap jewellery


But I'm so glad folks are now on the right page


Cheers,
- Mike

Originally Posted by MichaelC

Can you imagine trying to form the razor into near-net-shape using expensive dies etc. That is quite a crazy assumption an earlier poster jumped to...

No, we simply receive the strip steel from Damasteel and grind away everything that isn't a straight razor, then heat-treat and finish-grind and polish..

These are high-end handcrafted precision shaving implements after all - not pre-formed items of cheap jewellery

To be honest I don't see much difference between a near net shape form and stock removal of PM steel, the process to make the steel itself is still the same. I would consider them equally precise methods, as near-net-shape processes will require some final grinding at the end as well. (and I'm not sure about the knife/razor maker world, but to anyone who has experience/a degree in metallurgy, PM does come with the general assumption of near-net-shape operations, as that is what it was originally advantageous for). Densification should be the same (near 100%) as it looks like Damasteel uses hot isostatic pressing to make their stock.

Forging the pieces is another story and achieves a different microstructure - see picture below. Though honestly I'm not sure how much the stronger grain structure of forging would be advantageous in a razor application.

So the question begs, are you going to forge blades besides the stock removal method? I don't know if any W&B razors were not forged. You are getting farther from a real W&B razor all the time. Yes you own the name but I really believe you will sell more razors using traditional materials & methods.
Don't get me wrong.I think what you are doing is great. Attaching the Wade & Butcher name to it might be a stretch. If one of your razors will shave smoother than my 1860's - 1870's W&B hollow ground I might buy one.

Slawman

Mehhhh everybody's a metallurgist hahaa

Mike, If you were forging old Sheffield steel found in a bunker someone would cry the hammer was not 200 yrs old, or the old bird swinging it wasn't an Englishman lol




Love my old W&Bs but modern methods and materials will produce a superior product. Luckily there are plenty of old ones kicking around if the new W&B isn't someones cup of tea.


I look forward to my Irontusk, will grab one asap.