Thread: Some advice is needed

Originally Posted by Euclid440

Post a pic or link, there is Damascus, and there is Damascus. Most is patterned welded steel and some just acid etched to look like patterned welded. A quality razor will be several hundred dollars.

True Damascus is an ancient form of making steel that was both strong and flexible, for used in swords and knives.

The “secret” known to only a few, has been lost since the 16th century. Some claim to have reverse engineered the process and are re making traditional Damascus. Most of what you see is patterned welded steel where at least 2 kinds of steel are forged together, and acid etched, to display the pattern lines.

If you are new to Straight Razors, buy a quality new or vintage razor.

A few years back I picked up a two rather expensive Damascus steel beauties from Livi, who used Damasteel® (a Swedish company who specializes in this kind of steel) at that time.

As for their shaving qualities, regrettably there was nothing worth writing home about and, as a razor is for me first and foremosts a tool and only secondly a subject of beauty, I am now reluctant to pay a considerable premium for Damascus steel when the resulting shave does not justify the expense.

Hence, besides the potential aesthetics of Damascus steel, I would not expect any shaving revelations from this material.


B.

Some great advice above. The one thing I will add is that whether it is called "Damascus" or "pattern welded", what is commonly sold as Damascus is the result of a process that is both labour intensive and precise in its requirements. Take short cuts in the process and welds will fail. Use crappy steel and you won't be able to keep an edge. Do it by hand, and you're talking hours/days to get a high layer count. And yes, I can speak to that last point from personal experience. The upshot of this is that if you see inexpensive "Damascus", you should definitely be skeptical. It should not be inexpensive due to the care, time, and materials involved in its production.

There are some exceptions to this, but they are even more labour-intensive, and so even more expensive. See for example Tim Zowada's "Timahagane" blades, and Bruno's Wootz blades.

Originally Posted by beluga

A few years back I picked up a two rather expensive Damascus steel beauties from Livi, who used Damasteel® (a Swedish company who specializes in this kind of steel) at that time.

As for their shaving qualities, regrettably there was nothing worth writing home about and, as a razor is for me first and foremosts a tool and only secondly a subject of beauty, I am now reluctant to pay a considerable premium for Damascus steel when the resulting shave does not justify the expense.

Hence, besides the potential aesthetics of Damascus steel, I would not expect any shaving revelations from this material.


B.

Thats because Damasteel can not be hardened high enough to be truly useful for razors. If you look up its component steels, one of them is a lower hardness steel. Be fine for knife makers though.

And to complicate the matter, dont forget that there are fine shaving vintage blades that were marketed with the word "Damascus Steel"
Sort of the same as the "Fine India Steel" branding.

Not made using any welding method, just a marketing gimmic, or a claim of being sourced IN Damascus.

Originally Posted by Magpie

Thats because Damasteel can not be hardened high enough to be truly useful for razors. If you look up its component steels, one of them is a lower hardness steel. Be fine for knife makers though.

That may well explain it.
Asking myself why Livi, who commanded a cult-like following for a while, did not take this into consideration.

Anyway, these razor sadly never lived up to expectations.


B.

Originally Posted by beluga

That may well explain it.
Asking myself why Livi, who commanded a cult-like following for a while, did not take this into consideration.

Anyway, these razor sadly never lived up to expectations.


B.

You cant take something into account, if you are never given the information. The company hype had it that it was just shy of a miracle steel. and nowhere in the material data did it list its hardening potential. You had to go elsewhere to look up the properties of the individual steels used in its production. Same reason I dont like real damascus made with 15N20

To me Damascus steel sounds like it would be bad for a razor. I think the pattern indicates slightly different components of the steel, being harder and softer. It probably works great if you want to use it in weapons that need to be both sharp enough to kill, while not breaking, but it is probably too uneven for a razor.

Originally Posted by Magpie

You cant take something into account, if you are never given the information. The company hype had it that it was just shy of a miracle steel.

That is certainly true, but if a customer cannot have the confidence that a razor manufacturer, who likes to call himself “master”, tests a new material before he starts using and selling it, and verifies that it is suitable for the job, then a customer is well advised to take his money somewhere else.

Happily ordering a few rods of steel, making razors, deciding that they look pretty without testing whether the material can produce and hold a good edge, and then charging customers top $$$ is just not good enough - or “brutta figura” as they say in Italy.

That practice is generally referred to as making “razor shaped objects”.

The Damasteel® would not even have had to go to waste, as the company also manufactures knives, which - as you mentioned - it appears to be suitable for.



B.

Originally Posted by Magpie

You cant take something into account, if you are never given the information. The company hype had it that it was just shy of a miracle steel. and nowhere in the material data did it list its hardening potential. You had to go elsewhere to look up the properties of the individual steels used in its production. Same reason I dont like real damascus made with 15N20

My thanks is for pointing out that their steel may not be suitable for use in razors. That keeps me from making a mistake if I ever order a custom razor.

OTH, I agree with beluga that a "master" maker should have tested it first to confirm it's suitability for use in razor making before selling razors made with it. At the prices that were asked I could have made an expensive mistake had I been in the market for a custom razor.

Bob

On the subject of Damascus and hardness, this is one reason why you'll sometimes see razors that are a kind of Damsacus/san mai construction. I.e. a known steel such as O1, etc., sandwiched between two layers of Damascus. That way you can get the appearance of Damascus on much of the blade while ensuring that the edge is composed of a known steel suited to the purpose. Again, san mai introduces its own complications to the process, so expect the price to reflect that.