Thread: How does Wootz shave?

FME, it can be hard to hone. At least in my one instance.
Seems to shave quite well as finished. Old time steel feeling and noise as-shaving.
Cannot say about edge retention.
Nothing seems magical anymore.
Good is when it gets there, I suppose. A thread could be 'What is Magic?' .

We are talking about Wootz in general?

Originally Posted by petercp4e

No. I Have between 125 and 150 razors and always use them in rotation.

Pete <:-}

Pete: you have me beat, I have 75 and I too use them all; three to four days with one then on to the next.

"My best shavers are some of my cheapest" I have a 6/8 Claus Barber Special, made in Ohio, that I payed little for and stacks up
really well with anything I have.

There were a few makers in Ohio, all were exceptional.

Originally Posted by sharptonn

We are talking about Wootz in general?

I guess so. I only know of our custom maker here that is doing razors in wootz. I am not too interested in the pattern folded and welded right now.

I do not have a Wootz blade, but I do have one of Victor's Bluesman blades. He uses what is called a San Mai pattern which is a three-layer sandwich of steel. Thus, the majority of the blade has a San Mai pattern, but the edge is formed from the center layer only. Thus, the edge hones like a normal steel blade, but it has an appearance similar to Wootz.

I like my blades very sharp and very smooth, so the the San Mai pattern is a better option for me. Vic is excellent at grinding; He uses a bellied hollow grind, ideal for my coarse beard. He also does a great job of honing the edge...wicked sharp, yet smooth.

Originally Posted by RayClem

I do not have a Wootz blade, but I do have one of Victor's Bluesman blades. He uses what is called a San Mai pattern which is a three-layer sandwich of steel. Thus, the majority of the blade has a San Mai pattern, but the edge is formed from the center layer only. Thus, the edge hones like a normal steel blade, but it has an appearance similar to Wootz.

I like my blades very sharp and very smooth, so the the San Mai pattern is a better option for me. Vic is excellent at grinding; He uses a bellied hollow grind, ideal for my coarse beard. He also does a great job of honing the edge...wicked sharp, yet smooth.

I think there is a little bit of confusion here. San Mai (三枚) means literally "three pieces" - which describes the three-layered "sandwich" you've mentioned. The central layer is usually hard carbon steel giving superb edge, when the outer layers are usually some softer but more corrosion-resistant metal. Often in order to make the blade more aesthetically attractive, these outer layers are made of Damascus (patterned) steel.
Now, the confusion came from different meanings the definition of "Damascus" steel used to have in previous centuries and in the modern times. Nowadays Damascus indeed means pattern-welded steel, while a couple of centuries ago it used to be a synonym of Wootz crucible steel. Today the two definitions are not interchangeable: Wootz refers to a microscopic composition of the metal (hardly visible even if etched), while Damascus describes the macroscopic pattern-welded steel. To make things more complicated, one can make a Damascus out of Wootz - but I don't think anybody does it besides may be some special projects.
If anyone interested, there is a more detail (but still in layman terms) description here.

Originally Posted by dimab

I think there is a little bit of confusion here. ....

That's a good summary of the differences. The dendritic pattern on the surface of a wootz blade is very visible if etched correctly. And pattern welded blades can have patterns so fine that they are hard to see as well. As always, it depends on one's perspective.

The material (of whatever choosing) will be hard to hone because the steel is too hard (higher in Rockwell hardness). Softer steels will hone easier. Too soft and the edge will not be durable enough to shave comfortably for any length of time.

Honing and correct edge geometry will always win. Ancient razors made from bronze shaved hair. Bronze is not known for it's hardness. It was relatively harder because hammering would work-harden the material. It is possible to sharpen/hone even a relatively soft material to a shaving edge. It might not shave as long as a piece of hardened steel but that's why steel became the material of choice for sharp things.

I'd like to say I can make good steels. But when the honemeister has gotten the best out of whatever he hones, the edge is polished to the point where you can't tell what steel it's made of. The superficial etching is removed and all that's left is the steel. Microscopically all you see is scratches depending on how far your magnification goes. Grain size and carbide formation all play a role but those are well below visible to the naked eye on a polished edge.

If you can get an edge sharp and it shaves (or your technique too) pleasantly, that's probably good enough. The rest are aesthetics, legends, myths and magics.

Originally Posted by petercp4e

No. I Have between 125 and 150 razors and always use them in rotation.

Pete <:-}

Makes it a bit hard to determine edge retention over a number of shaves, no?

I never have counted the number of shaves on any razor.
I just go by feel to determine when to take a razor back to the hones for a touch up or re-hone.
They always tell you when their ready.

Pete <:-}