So what is a custom razor?

Well we all know when you contract with someone to make a razor to your specs or buy a one of a kind razor that's a custom razor. However what inquiring minds want to know is when you put down the big bucks for a made to order razor how important is it to you that the guy who puts his name or initials on the razor actually made the thing either in whole or in part and which part?

From what I understand Tim Zowada is on the end where he does it all from metal fabrication to scale manufacture and Livi is next in that he buys the steel ingots and cuts his own blanks and does everything else from that point. The other guys I don't know but if someone got the blanks ready made and sent them out for grinding and basically did the scales and final honing and some blade decoration would that be ok by you or would you expect the maker to have a certain involvement in the whole process. Or for that matter would the price you pay cause you to expect the maker to have more involvement so say a $300 custom wouldn't need that degree of involvememnt where a $1200 razor would?

Also at the same point does the mere fact that a razor is a unique piece make it a custom or does the concept of custom require a certain level of craftmanship. So if Zeepk starts making custom razors for $75.00 well you know...

one thing first
tim is one hell of a maker and i cant say 100% but he most likely does not smelt his own L6 and O1 that he makes his Damascus steel with so the mono steel blades he does comes in bars much like i get or any other maker would buy.

i am planning on forging out some bars of Damascus for knife and razor use but till i do my mono steel will come shipped in bar or rod stock

i like to say that short of growing the trees and smelting the steel i make the whole blade including the heat treat and cryo
now i have a order for coming together for whale bone and scrim that the scriming will be done out of house. only thing worse then my spelling and typing is my hand writing.

I can only relate the whole custom razor market the same way I see the Rifle game

Stock rifle off the shelf = Un-sharpened razor in decent shape
Accurized Rifle = Restored/ New Shave ready razor
Semi-custom Rifle = Restored shave ready rescaled razor
Full custom Rifle = New production steel newly scaled razor
Hand made Rifle = Hand Made razor
Rather simple minded of me, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it :D
I guess I see razors and weapons in the same light... Hmmmmmm maybe that's why I like them both so much

To me a custom razor is any razor that you order or create to your own specifications.

That could involve wanting a Helji No. 32 blade fitted out with a set of Buffalo horn scales. Or it could involve getting someone to smelt the steel, shape it however you want, temper it with the blood of heathens, grind it to a quarter hollow, embed it with rhinestones, and scale it with prehistoric mosquitoes embedded in amber.... (hmmmm, I think I need to talk to Joe...).

James.

The idea for me is that a custom razor is one made by an artisan or artisans in their respective fields of excellence, working with raw, useless materials to create a tool that exceeds the performance of what is readily available.

If I ever commission one, it will be an 8/8 of hand smelted or reduced high carbon steel, with a traditional shape, 1/4 hollow grind, absolutely flawless mirror finish, differential heat treat and temper on the higher side of the general razor populace, something modest but classy for scale material, three pins, jimps, and a dedicated box of the same scale material and metal for trim. And a stipulation that none of the work on any piece may be performed with a power tool (there's something romantic about a truly handmade piece of functional art).

One can dream, right?

Anything not production is custom, weither a custom is worth the $$$ is dependent on the level of craftsmanship, the design, quality, etc...
A custom zeepk is still a zeepk, but if the "custom" ones shave well, they might be worth $75?:shrug:(I doubt it)

With any New razor, the more you pay for it, the more you are going to nit pick the details.
If I pay $1000 for a Zowada, I will be expecting a flawless razor, If I pay $300 for a Chandler, I will expect a good looking great shaving razor, with minor anomalies that will not affect the function or appearance of the razor. (No offense Joe) If Joe produces a flawless razor, for $300, Great for me, but at that price range, I'm not going to examine the work under a microscope.
I would still expect higher quality from these custom razors than a $200 TI or Dovo.

You also have to consider what you are ordering into the equation. The fit and finish of the razor is only part of the production cost.
Zowada razors are worth the price because he does all of the manufacturing himself. If I was able to get a Damascus razor blank, and just polish and hone it, It may look comparable to a Zowada(yeah right) but I didn't put the work into it that Tim does.
In other words it is worth paying more if you know the work really was done by a master, rather than a machined factory blank.
To me it's worth paying $$ for a Williams because i know he's at home pounding out my razor by hand.

The final word on value is not so easy, because it's whatever people are willing to spend... If I start making customs, and charging $10,000... It will not be long before my prices drop to a level that the market will support.
Each maker charges what the market deems his razors are worth. as soon as they breach that level, their sales will drop, and they will adjust prices, or spend more time on each razor, to bring quality and the market value of their razors up..
I don't think most of the makers make what they should for the time involved. Be greatful they don't charge by the hour like plumbers do...

I think I see what you're getting at Mike.

For me a custom is anything not off the shelf, with some hand made element to it.

Obviously there is a huge scale in the custom world, at the bottom end someone buys a Polish Wapi and has custom horn scales put on it. Midway might be something like a Maestro Livi, and top end would be something from Tim.

I've owned a few customs. Of the 3 Maestro's I owned, all had very minor defects with them. Things like, the first was not shave ready and needed a fair amount of honing, one had a tiny sharp burr on the end of the blade which would cut into the strop when I stropped. All 3 had uneven scales, with one side being thicker than the other. But at that price point ($500 ish) all these things were acceptable to me, since they were very minor and could be easily rectified by me without having to be sent back.

The RW I owned was basically perfect when it arrived, but needed a bit of a clean. Again, not a big problem, so not worth even mentioning to the vendor IMO.

I have a TZ on the way at the moment, so I'm kinda hoping/expecting it will be far more meticulously finished - seeing as it retails at a might higher price point.

By the way, this is not a dig at anyone's quality control, if I had a serious problem with a custom I'd surely complain and expect to have it fixed, that hasn't been necessary to date.

Exactly my point... :D

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Obviously there is a huge scale in the custom world, at the bottom end someone buys a Polish Wapi and has custom horn scales put on it. Midway might be something like a Maestro Livi, and top end would be something from Tim.

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someone could put pine scales on a Wapi, and it would be custom, I wouldn't pay much for it, but that doesn't change the fact that it's had modifications to improve it's appearance and function.
although I would conside a modified Wapi to be customized and not a real custom... unless the Wapi was a regrind... ;)

Part of the custom is the name of the maker... I want that TZ or Livi to be displayed on my razors...
If I buy a TZ, and grind the name off of it, and etch my name there instead how much is it worth? Even if I do the alteration flawlessly, and not even Tim can tell where his work ends and my alteration begins... How much value is lost? 70% 80%?


I have 2 custom handled razors in my collection, a Williams Kudu horn handled Froidur, and a Wacker Buffalo horn handled Dorko. The Wacker could pass for factory, in fact it is absolutely perfect.
The Williams has minor imperfections in the horn, but nature made these. It's a good looking rugged monster of a razor, and the Kudu finishes it. not to mention it's perfect balance.
I like them both.
I recently ordered another Williams, 8/8 HCS mirror polish 1/2 hollow w/spanish point or barber's notch, filework and jimping with a polished natural giraffe bone handle. When he asked me if I had any pattern in mind for the file work, or anything else I asked him to think elegant and classy, and have fun. What's it going to look like? I haven't the foggiest, but I'm sure it's going to be cool.
Do I expect it to be flawless? not really, I don't want any major flaws, but It's being hand forged, hammered and ground. I expect it to look good and shave equally well. If there are minor marks left over from it's creation, I'm not going to be surprised or upset.



And yes the waiting is killing me... My order was placed January 31st.:D
LoL, I'm fighting of a strong urge to send him a daily Email asking "Is it done yet?

Ah fudge my order with him was not placed till May I think it was, late at that.

I do hope you get yours soon then ;)

According to an email I had from Robert about 2 weeks ago, his current leadtime is approx 4 months. That speaks volumes in itsself, he obvoiusly has lots of people lining up to buy razors. :D

Yeah, by the looks of it, RW's skills are a work of art.

Call me old fashioned, but to me 'Custom' razor is me going to a razor maker and stating how I want it to look.

A Hand-made razor is me buying one from a razor maker but it looks the way he wanted it to.

Some of the Hand-made stuff by the new guys is sensational and at a very good price. One example of this is the razors by Josh.

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Originally Posted by Mike_ratliff

Wacker Buffalo horn handled Dorko.

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I bet that razor is immense. Have heard nothing but great reviews of these blades.

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Originally Posted by poona

Yeah, by the looks of it, RW's skills are a work of art.

Call me old fashioned, but to me 'Custom' razor is me going to a razor maker and stating how I want it to look.

A Hand-made razor is me buying one from a razor maker but it looks the way he wanted it to.

Some of the Hand-made stuff by the new guys is sensational and at a very good price. One example of this is the razors by Josh.

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I was thinking the same thing. I could (if I had lots of cash lying around :w ) go to Classicshaving and order a Livi or Zowada off their site. That, to me, isn't "custom", just artisinal. Sure, it's a 1-of-a-kind, but not something to MY specs, just a great-looking razor.

I'd compare it to buying a suit. Sure, I can get a off-the-rack D&G or Brioni suit, it'd be fabulous and expensive, but it's not "bespoke". For that, the tailor takes my measurements, and makes ONE suit out of cloth that I choose, to MY specifications.

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Originally Posted by Doc4

I was thinking the same thing. I could (if I had lots of cash lying around :w ) go to Classicshaving and order a Livi or Zowada off their site. That, to me, isn't "custom", just artisinal. Sure, it's a 1-of-a-kind, but not something to MY specs, just a great-looking razor.

I'd compare it to buying a suit. Sure, I can get a off-the-rack D&G or Brioni suit, it'd be fabulous and expensive, but it's not "bespoke". For that, the tailor takes my measurements, and makes ONE suit out of cloth that I choose, to MY specifications.

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True but don't you think most people would associate the Custom razor as the cats meow when in fact the handmade one may be more expensive, of better quality and more artistic?

Warning! The following is a blatant advertisement! It is a little known fact that I do take custom orders through Classicshaving. The razor below is a 7/8's I just finished.

Tim Z.

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Originally Posted by Tim Zowada

Warning! The following is a blatant advertisement! It is a little known fact that I do take custom orders through Classicshaving. The razor below is a 7/8's I just finished.

Tim Z.

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Kept at it Tim. It takes awhile to find your stride when making blades. Your doing a
good job. :w


Gary

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Originally Posted by poona

Yeah, by the looks of it, RW's skills are a work of art.

Call me old fashioned, but to me 'Custom' razor is me going to a razor maker and stating how I want it to look.

A Hand-made razor is me buying one from a razor maker but it looks the way he wanted it to.

Some of the Hand-made stuff by the new guys is sensational and at a very good price. One example of this is the razors by Josh.

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I agree with you. Custom is made to one customer's specifications. Handmade is just what the name implies. Now, handmade could open up a whole new argument...I've seen makers who claim it's handmade when they crank it out on a CNC machine. IMO, that's not. I make mine from bars of steel that I cut, shape, grind, polish, etch, and hone. Same with handles. The only part of the process I farm out is heat treating, because I want the best, most consistent product for my customers I can get, and I want absolute confidence in what I send them. For me, using Paul Bos and Mike Blue for that process assures me of that. And it's actually quite traditional for makers to do that. I used to do my own heat treating, but without specific equipment, it's hard to guarantee results every time, which is something I demand.

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Originally Posted by Tim Zowada

Warning! The following is a blatant advertisement! It is a little known fact that I do take custom orders through Classicshaving. The razor below is a 7/8's I just finished.

Tim Z.

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That ain't the coolest looking razor I've ever seen, but it's in the top 2. :D :tu

When I think of a "custom razor", I think of a custom-made razor meaning that the razor was made from scratch to my specifications, whether they be very specific or very general. Strictly though, I think a "custom razor" is one in which the customer had any options regarding the razor itself. I think that is general customization

I customized my sandwich for lunch today by requesting turkey in addition to the menu specs for the sandwich. I wouldn't think of it as a custom sandwich though. hmm.

Thats a beautiful razor Tim but your goat got to it and chewed the top of the blade off.

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Originally Posted by poona

I bet that razor is immense. Have heard nothing but great reviews of these blades.

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Wacker razors are very hard, it's a full holow(I think), but it shaves like a 1/2 hollow, no flex at all...
It isn't as smooth as my Henckels, but few razors are... I've had over 100 razors, and due to various financial and family issues, I've sold off almost all of them. The Dorko is #3 on a very short list of razors that I will not sell.
If I named my razors, my top 4 would have to be named after Greek Gods.
The Williams I ordered will be compared to these 4 when I get it, and I hope it will be comparable.
Also I made a deal with my family, that once things settle down, I will be given free reign to order several customs to replace the razors I sold...
I'm making my list
I have a Wacker, I've ordered my Williams...
TZ, Chandler, Livi, Josh Earl, Bill Ellis... Who else should I add to my list?:D

Oh am I going to have fun with this list...

In my rush to get the last post up, I forgot to add, I think you can get "custom" work from Maestro Livi by going through Lynn.

Pretty much everything I've seen from Joe, Robert or Bill would classify as "custom". I admit, I haven't seen it all. But, I love stealing their ideas...

I see "custom" as made to the individual end customer's specifications. It would be something different, or even just slightly modified , from the makers usual product line. Custom should not infer a difference in quality or even price. It just gives the end user the chance to spec. just what they want.

If someone wanted a razor where the only change was to do a full hollow grind, instead of the usual 1/4 hollow, that would be "custom".

Or, you can look at the work that Don has had done for him. He designed pretty much everything and had it made. That is custom too.

Tim Z.

I agree with the consensus that seems to be emerging here... I consider the stuff I'm doing right now to be hand-made, but not truly custom. I find that I prefer to work on one razor at a time, experimenting with different designs and materials.

Custom work involves people placing orders, which automatically means a waiting list. Which to me is too much pressure. I don't enjoy the process when I have 10 more people waiting in line...

As for "hand-made," I consider that to allow for the use of power tools. A human being is in the driver-seat, even if a little juice off the grid is making the work go faster. :)

Josh

May I suggest that it may be generally accepted, by many, that a custom razor is not necessarily a razor produced to the specific requirements of a customer. It could be a razor produced, as a one off, to the craftsmans own specifications and design.

A bespoke razor however, would be manufactured to an individuals own specifications and requirements. Two similar though totally different things IMHO.

Customer participation has nothing to do with whether a razor is custom or not. Is this a new way for someone who doesn't do any of the work to get residual credit for someone else's work? If a hobbiest/artist produces a blade he has ground to shape and a made a set of scales to fit the blade, it is custom work.


Levi - Custom work (according to some of you, all of his stuff must not be custom. You can't possibly believe every razor he has made has had imput from a customer)

For instance : 100 blades stamped by machine, then ground by machine but touched up by hand - Bench Made

Dovo - factory

If I had to define it:

"The collaboration between customer and craftsman in the execution of design elements to produce a unique piece specially for the customer, with particular importance placed on the creation of the blade"

What this means to me, in a nutshell:

-Being in communication with the craftsman is essential. (can't be a custom if you didn't have any say in the design)
-The blade has to be ground from scratch. (ie You take a piece of steel and grind away anything that doesn't look like a razor)

For inquiring minds, I would NOT consider the following to be custom:

-Buying "off the rack" (ie a TZ or Livi from classicshaving, or a JC from Lynn...these are high-end or handmade)
-Rescaling (this makes a razor "customized"...big difference)
-Regrinding (this makes a razor "restored"...big difference)
-Grinding a razor blank (makes a razor "finished"...sorry Livi)
-Spinework to an existing blade (again being customized)
-Buying someone elses custom razor! (I don't care if you paid $1200 for it, if you got it off eBay or BST, it ain't custom)

Let's break it down a little further:

You have to talk with the craftsman and say "This is what I want!" and he makes it for you. Done deal

If a maker makes a blade for his own purposes, yup it's a custom...until he sells it to someone, at which point it becomes handmade.

Those are just my thoughts

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Originally Posted by Joe Chandler

That ain't the coolest looking razor I've ever seen, but it's in the top 2. :D :tu

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... you owe us a photo of the other one ... :w

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

True but don't you think most people would associate the Custom razor as the cats meow when in fact the handmade one may be more expensive, of better quality and more artistic?

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I suspect that people would tend to see a custom razor as the "cat's meow", since it would be a handmade razor with the additional benefit of being made specifically to the purchaser's specifications, making it both an unique reflection of the craftsman's skills and an unique reflection of the purchaser's personality.

It'd be the difference between
(a) going to Classicshaving and buying whatever Zowada happens to be in stock, and
(b) calling up Tim Zowada and getting him to make a 33/32" bulgarian-point wedge with cloverleaf tang and dogwood scales inlaid with my family crest. (Okay, I made most of that up, but you get the idea.)

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Originally Posted by Doc4

making it both an unique reflection of the craftsman's skills and an unique reflection of the purchaser's personality.

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ooo i like that

Here's a nice informative post by Bill Ellis for those that have not read it.

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=44443

Very good post by Bill.