Thread: Japanese Razor Talk!

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Well I don't know about myths and what someone supposedly said to someone through an interpreter.

Just to clarify, it was Joel at B&B who wrote this and he wrote the following in one post:
"That is very much incorrect. I don't know who started that rumor, as it is quite prevalent, however the Japanese style razors shave equally effective on EITHER side of the blade - period."

And in a following post, he wrote:
"I spoke to the man who actually made them (when custom ordering the one in ZDP steel) and through a translator, he made it vividly clear, you shave with both sides. I own 4 Japanese straights - 2 new and 2 ancient and I use ALL 4 on both sides with equally fantastic results. The different shapes/blade profile on both sides are to create a fine, yet incredibly robust edge.

It is not chisel ground - in that BOTH side are sharpened with an angle, the wedge side is not just straight down (a la chisel)."

Both posts can be found in the Tosuke review thread. I guess we can assume one of four things:
1. Joel made inaccurate assertions.
2. The translator interpreted the razor maker incorrectly.
3. The razor maker doesn't know what he is talking about.
4. You are incorrect in your assertion.

Dan

Originally Posted by dcarmell

1. Joel made inaccurate assertions.
2. The translator interpreted the razor maker incorrectly.
3. The razor maker doesn't know what he is talking about.
4. You are incorrect in your assertion.

Is that a poll? I know what I'd pick!

Sorry guys, sometimes I'm in a goofy mood...

Originally Posted by dcarmell

Both posts can be found in the Tosuke review thread. I guess we can assume one of four things:
1. Joel made inaccurate assertions.
2. The translator interpreted the razor maker incorrectly.
3. The razor maker doesn't know what he is talking about.
4. You are incorrect in your assertion.

Dan

But to be fair, many people believed the myth in question (myself included, for a long time), and it had to have come from somewhere so it's not like Bigspendur is making it up. We've all just been misinformed.

That said, I don't buy the idea about prolonged edge retention either. The grind has nothing to do with what happens to the cutting edge, it has to do with the bevel angle, the metal in question, and the thermal treatments it has undergone.

Sounds like a marketing ploy or an uninformed theory at best. In fact it has no more logic behind it than the one sided usage theory... and the mysteries continue...

Very true, Russell, and I oughtn't have been so pointed--that was unmannerly and I apologize.

Dan

My razor was set upon with great intent to do something, but i don't know what. It has been seriously mis-sharpened. I have honed on it just a little. It works as tbs describes... for the time being. and if it turns impossible i'd be the first to say

the kanna anology. when you first learn to plane you are taught to go with the grain of the wood using a pull stroke. After some time the notion occurs to you that the next cut needs a push stroke. You never adopt it as a primary stroke, but when needs be it works better. Finally after much practice and observation tuning the dai and developing high level sharpening skill you learn the kanna can produce equal results planing either with or against the grain

I didn't intend that to be a chastising post, I just like to keep all things as objective as possible until a definitive answer is presented for this mysterious (and oh so appealing) style of razor.

So far we have two theories for the asymmetrical grind, both of which seem to have their flaws: many people report being able to use, and enjoy, the Japanese razor on either side; nobody seems to confirm that the edge is any more "robust" than any other straight.

And now, if I may, I'd like to present another option.

The Japanese are supremely aware of aesthetics and value asymmetry with slight imperfections more so than the alternatives. It's part of a philosophy they call "Wabi-Sabi", link: Wabi-sabi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. So it could just be the way they incorporated their aesthetic values into the design of the razor over however many years.

That said, they have many forms of cutlery (yanagiba, takohiki, etc.) that have an asymetrical bevel for the specific purpose of making the tool right handed or left handed. With a steep angle on one side, and a flat back, the user is able to slice meat with their dominant hand and make it detach from the blade as easily as possible (because the transition from the cutting bevel to the blade body is at such a steep angle, the food loses it's suction to the knife).

So, considering the options, it may well be an attempt to incorporate all of the previous theories because if they all do what they are supposed to, then the tool is head and shoulders above rest of the pack; and if they don't, you still have wonderful aesthetics and a great tool.

Kudos to those craftsmen, whatever their intent.

I think when people are looking for solutions to a problem they fail to recognize the simplest and most logical ones in favor of complicated hypothesis and then complicate things even more in an attempt to justify their assumptions.

The fact that Joel or I or others feel the way we do about these razors has nothing to do with hearsay information or videos or theories. Its based only on our use of them over time and simple observation and in my case when I sold them a few years ago and what I learned from the venders in Japan. To us there is no mystery here. Maybe to some of you there is and I hope you will further investigate to determine the ultimate truth.

Take this as you will.

Enjoy your razors guys and I truly mean that.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

I think when people are looking for solutions to a problem they fail to recognize the simplest and most logical ones in favor of complicated hypothesis and then complicate things even more in an attempt to justify their assumptions.

The fact that Joel or I or others feel the way we do about these razors has nothing to do with hearsay information or videos or theories. Its based only on our use of them over time and simple observation and in my case when I sold them a few years ago and what I learned from the venders in Japan. To us there is no mystery here. Maybe to some of you there is and I hope you will further investigate to determine the ultimate truth.

Take this as you will.

Enjoy your razors guys and I truly mean that.

I take it with good intentions you convey tbs. with your statements on the subject I have never seen any further explanation, only something to the effect that if you are to master this style razor it must be used this way. As I said my razor responds the same way you describe.

My problem is- I don't want it to be that way so I struggle for explanations trying to think for myself rather than blindly accepting all i read.

I am investigating to determine the veracity of Joel's statement. As well as other facts of terminology and design. I guess you could say i want to believe Joel because that suits my lazy arse ways.

As you are well informed on their methods could you explain the design for us truth seekers. a humble and sincere request
_ Kevin Toomey

Ultimately the most important thing is we enjoy our razors our own way. Sometimes there is no right or wrong sometimes more than one ways are right nor wrong.

I have put the question to So a while ago. He is on holiday now. My experience is he investigates things, he has contacts in Japan, he has been taught honing the Japanes way from his father, he met with Iwasake-san and knows his successor (see my post on B&B) he deals in hones so I hope he'll be able to shed some light.

Think of it this way. We all use western razors and I don't think I have ever seen someone question why they are the way they are. So why were they designed to be used with two hands and not one? Why fold? Is the western way a better way? if so why? Is the shave superior? Its all a matter of your perspective gentlemen. Black is white and white is black. How would someone from Japan who never saw a western razor think about this? What conclusions would they reach?