Thread: What's silver steel and what's it doing in my razor?

fccexpert - just a case of semantics, viewpoint and time - probably due to the collective lapse in our memories and thinking that everything new is ... well ... everything. It's true that silver steel - nowadays - is not the same as silver steel in Faraday's time. Modern silver-steel razors are not the same as the old razors.

Faraday's silver steel was used in razors - see the link.

I have definitely seen razors with "silver added" or "silver added to steel" on either the razor itself or the advertising blurb. The link to Faraday and silver steel also specifically refers to Sheffield. Just because it was an experiment, and the addition of silver didn't add anything, doesn't mean that all razors marketed as silver-steel have no silver in them. If anyone cares to look over the archive, there are references. The original had (according to which source you view) either 1% or 0.02% silver in it. This has now been replaced with chrome or molybdenum.

Blueprinciple is a senior member. He knows what the original silver-steel was, and that it had silver in it. Perhaps he will chime in. Why call it anything other than silver-steel? Think about it. Because it's bright? Ok, maybe - or perhaps "really bright steel" or "lovely shiny steel" - who knows? Facts are facts and guesses are anyones preserve.

I'm not saying that modern silver-steel has silver in it - don't get me wrong. But quoting stuff parrot-style and ignoring all that has gone before seems to me to be a great disservice to those early pioneers. Let's face it - a lot of us are working backwards to achieve just a small iota of what they already achieved.

Does it matter that the silver didn't help? That it wasn't as strong an alloy as it could have been? What matters is that someone of gargantuan intellectual proportions thought about it, made it real, and made razors out of it. Things change. 20th Century Fox still make pictures, don't they?

Regards,
Neil

According to the link (The book “Michael Faraday” By Silvanus Phillips Thompson), Faraday would occasionally present to one of his friends a razor made from his own special steel, It may have been the Silver Steel he invented. There is no mention Silver Steel used in the production of razors; it would be too expensive with no better effect than other alloys.

If there were razors produced with “Silver Steel” there could not have been many (add to that the few Sterling Silver handled razors we see popping up on eBay), a negligible quantity compared to the other countless numbers made with more suitable alloys.

Neil, we are still friends… and I concede that "Silver Steel" does exist, but Silver is/was too expensive to be used in an everyday item such as a razor (remember back in those days a straight razor was as ubiquitous as a butcher knife).

My only point is… we all know human nature, Silver is Silver, it is valuable. Even the word “Silver” is valuable, and the shiny polished blade with “Silver Steel” in the description will conjure in the minds of the purchaser the idea of a “Higher Quality” item in which the best care, precision and materials was invested to producing it.

The word “Silver” adds value… that’s marketing.

Which one would you most likely buy?

PRESHARPENED DOVO Genuine Ebony & "Drill Rod Steel" 5/8 ($134.99)
or
PRESHARPENED DOVO Genuine Ebony & "Silver Steel" 5/8 ($134.99)

anyone know how hard silver steel is typically hardened to in razors?

Originally Posted by smythe

Neil, we are still friends… and I concede that "Silver Steel" does exist, but Silver is/was too expensive to be used in an everyday item such as a razor (remember back in those days a straight razor was as ubiquitous as a butcher knife)

Yes, of course we are still friends - it's only a discussion! I do still think you are wrong in your assumptions, though - silver is a precious metal of course, but it is cheap for what it is - always has been - and a 0.02% addition to steel is hardly a sign of a great spender!

Faraday had a lot of people interested in his steel - he was much admired in his own time and well respected. The previous link refers to his steel and to Sheffield, which links silver steel with a great razor manufacturing city. Faraday may have had a few razors produced from his steel to give to friends, but ingots of it were passed around and others definitely did make razors from it. Look at the pic below, hi-jacked from a recent posting on this forum. No doubt we will hear the old "...they said anything they liked in those days..." refrain about this, but it looks like a statement of fact to me:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...5cropLarge.jpg

And before anyone viewing the picture goes on about India Steel, google Wootz steel and see what you find - it was once the best crucible steel obtainable in the world.

And another link (I know I only posted it a few days ago, but I'm referring to a different part of it this time) from Sheffield University - see the final paragraph mentioning an 1824 booklet about experiments with silver steel, Faraday, and other razor-makers using his steel.

Finally, this quote from "Steel Before Science"

"...One of the more curious results from the faux Damascus period was the work of James Stoddard and Michael Faraday In 1819 Faraday analysed Wootz steel and got it wrong. In 1820, he and Stoddard published descriptions of alloys they had made of steel with silver, nickel, platinum, chromium, and other metals. Many of these showed a good Wootz-like moire. "They observed the extrusion and retention of globules of silver in castings, and of fibres in forgings, made from their alloy of silver in steel. Their "silver steel" was the first alloy steel to become popular."The quality probably resulted from Faraday’s remelting processes. The silver just happened to make it look right...."

Modern British silver steel (without any silver) usually made by Stubs (established late 19th century) is a wonderful high carbon water hardenable steel, Ive done quite a bit of forging with it. As others have said the name is probably just good marketing. It is one of my favourite steels, I dabble at knife making and forging though Im nowhere near Mike Blue's league.

Jason, no one is disputing that modern silver steel is just high carbon steel I don't subscribe to the idea that the name arose as marketing hype though! I think it is more likely that the Faraday's steel was used, especially by watch and clock makers and some razor manufacturers) and that even after the formulation of the alloy changed, the name stuck.

Okay, I'm on both sides of the fence and not just becauase Neill and I share the same last name <g>. If references were found that it was used in razors, then it must have been. It may or may not have added anything but one cannot rule out the marketing aspect. Remember they used "damascus" freely whatever the steel, and things like "magnetic" and "carbo-magnetic" were catchy names too even though we unliely needed any magnetic aspects when shaving.

What is at question is what are today's "silver steel" razors made of. Silver steel today means a bright, high carbon steel. Not stainless, but bright in finish......as applied to metals. What does it mean as applied to a Dovo razor though? Is it today's bright high carbon steel, or is it really the stuff of yore? Is Dovo using "silver steel" to designate were have the old time stuff, or we have something we can call the old time stuff.

Someone close to Dovo ought to ask them this question. At leat it will clear up what today's, modern silver steel razors are actually made of.

Tony

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

Jason, no one is disputing that modern silver steel is just high carbon steel I don't subscribe to the idea that the name arose as marketing hype though! I think it is more likely that the Faraday's steel was used, especially by watch and clock makers and some razor manufacturers) and that even after the formulation of the alloy changed, the name stuck.

Neil, You could well be right, I wasnt trying to be contentious, to be honest I dont really have a view on the origin of the name although it may have appeared otherwise from my comments.

All I can say is theres no silver it in now even if there was at one time and "Silver steel" sounds a lot better than W1 or 01 or ZDP189 or whatever, its a good name, marketing wise for a company like Stubs to be associated with and if its origins are based on steel with silver in the composition thats good too.

When I was awee lad, my late dad who had served an apprenticeship in a toolroom sometime in the distant past would occassionally speak of "silver steel" and he had some rods of this stuff in his old box of engineers tools, "this is special stuff he told me and expensive so dont go wasting it". It took on a kind of magic for me, I didnt know anything about it but it sounded good Eventually I got to forge the stuff and I still think its magic

A good though exercise however it happens.

Silver steel, as we know it today, is as already illuminated. A high carbon steel commonly used for drill rod and good enough for razors certainly.

The chemistry is essentially similar to O-1 (sadly too common altogether and an underrated steel when compared to the modern wunderstahls) and minor changes can occur within the ranges specified depending on the steel mill doing the melt. O-1 works very well for razors and will achieve an easy hardness with minimum trouble of 60.5, or so the last batch I did for someone turned out.

Faraday was experimenting with any number of alloying elements trying to make steel more resistant to oxidation. So yes, there was a "silver steel" alloy at some point but that was abandoned as a modern manufacturing alloy quite a while ago.

I was going to also add that you can't go by what is written on a razor. Like the old patent medicines it was before any consumer protection laws and it was buyer beware. people could put anything they wanted on any product without having to justify or prove anything. probably around WWll things started to change.