Ideas and Suggestions for SEM honing and stropping research experiment

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04-23-2009, 05:05 PM
rosscollins3

Ideas and Suggestions for SEM honing and stropping research experiment

This thread is dedicated to designing an experiment for measuring the qualitative or perhaps quantitative differences of how certain types of strops can affect the edge of a straight razor. The Device used for evaluating these edges will be a well maintained and calibrated Scanning Electron microscope with a camera. Here we will decide on what experiments will be undertaken, what controls will be in place for the experiment, and anything else that comes up will also be discussed as long as it is related to the project.

Please leave erroneous comments out of this thread as they will not be needed in order for the experiment to proceed. If you feel so inclined to discuss the uniqueness of this project or leave a comment, please do so at This forum page

The SEM power, material, and time is being donated by the company that I work for and me. If you feel that you would like to donate something for this, please PM me for that information. Let it be known that my time is free and any donations will go straight to this project and any leftovers after the project is over will go to the small business the I am employed at to cover equipment costs. The research will be conducted during downtime hours of the SEM and afterwork in order to reduce the cost.

Here is a collaboration of Ideas and volunteered propositions thus far.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bart

One big advantage of a SEM is that you can actually see and do measurements on the width and the shape of the bevel tip, a.k.a. the very edge.

This could finally clear up some questions about stropping and how various stropping surfaces affect that bevel tip.
And a whole bunch of other questions, concerning hones and their abilities too.

...shooting pictures fresh off the hone, after the first stropping session on leather, right after the first shave, and after allowing the edge a day of rest), would you be prepared to run them, for the benefit of the whole SRP community?
Bart.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leighton

...There is an ongoing debate as to what exactly stropping does and why it works. No one knows for sure, we all have theories. By getting more data on the edge before and after stropping, we can better understand what it is that stropping does.

Does it remove burrs left over from the honing process? Does it actually remove metal and sharpen the very edge? Does it remove corrosion? Does it strip an molecular layer away, giving us fresh metal? Does it realign the bevel?

To the OP: If you need more razors to test, I am more than willing to donate some to experiment on. Same rules as Jimmy, I want them back once the tests are over. :D

I can even send over razors that have been used x amount of time with no stropping in between and a razor fresh off the hones. Then you can strop it and see before and after pics. But, you'd of course have to post pics for us. :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by joke1176

I will send you some slurry from an Escher, a Japanese, a few Thuringians, and a few coticules for particulate comparison... You could really shed some light on the coticules vs thuringians vs Japanese et al debates.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisL

I'd like to see what an ATS-34 edge that is considered by the owner and contributor to be a great shaving edge looks like in comparison to a vintage carbon steel edge that is also considered by an owner to be a great shaver.

Can anyone else think of unanswered questions that would be great to be answered by the closer look an SEM can provide?

Quote:

Originally Posted by northpaw

Take the razor in after shaving, snap a few, then strop it and snap a few more. Even better if you could somehow find the same "dot" of blade twice. :D

Thanks for sharing these.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seraphim

As said above, please also take the time to throw in a nice new DE blade to see what that looks like.

One of the sharpest and smoothest cutting (for me anyway) DE blades I've used was a Feather.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rosscollins3

We need to work out an issue. Would it be okay for an individual to send their razor after stropping to be looked at in the SEM? or is that time lapse too long... I think it may be too long as I usually wait until the lather is on my face to stop my razor.
04-23-2009, 05:13 PM
mparker762

At this point I'm mostly interested in what stropping does. We have a good idea about what honing does to the edge from your photos and the Verhoeven photos, so looking at various hones only adds a little bit of knowledge to the art.

But there are two areas that are still a complete mystery, left unexplored by Verhoeven.

1) Stropping.

All we have are guesses as to what stropping does to the blade, both for leather and for canvas. One of the things we were pretty sure about was that it removed the burrs from the edge and aligned the teeth, but neither Verhoeven's photos nor yours show teeth, and his leather strops didn't remove the burrs on the edge and from your photos it doesn't appear that your strops are doing this either. So what does the leather strop really do? We know it does something, because the blade feels sharper afterwards. Same thing for the canvas side of the blade - all the guys that are getting a year out of a honing are using the canvas side of the strop, yet many guys can't tell that the canvas side is doing anything at all. So what does the canvas really do to an edge?

2) Dulling.

How does a razor lose its edge? Is it wear or corrosion, or mechanical failure of the steel by chipping of the weak spots in the steel?

What I would like to see is a freshly honed razor, then shave with it, then the next day a pre-strop photo and a post-leather-strop photo. Then shave again then next day another pre-strop-photo and then strop on canvas or linen for 30 laps or so, then take another photo. Maybe then strop on leather for 40-50 laps then another photo.

Then a shot of a razor that has been shaving well but now needs a touch-up, to see what a worn razor looks like.

Finally a photo from a razor that has been used for several months and still shaving pretty well, just to see the difference between a "worn but shaving" razor, and a "worn and needs touch-up" razor. I've got some with a bit over a hundred shaves, but I think there are other members that have razors that have several hundred shaves on them.
04-23-2009, 05:14 PM
JimmyHAD

One of the most debated issues I have observed is exactly what effect stropping has on the razor's edge. Whether linen is superior to leather, horse to cowhide, or not even necessary. Hence my offer to loan out my 2 1/2 Tony Miller horse/latigo/linen combo hanging stop. Whenever you are ready. :tu
04-23-2009, 05:23 PM
Leighton

I would be interested in a honed razor v. a stropped razor with linen and leather. I can supply both of those. Then, once you have pics of the unstropped razor, strop it on leather and take pics of those.

Then, you shave with the razor for 5 days with no stropping and see what happens to the edge. I've got two shumates that are nearly identical, so that will cut down on some of the variance.
04-23-2009, 05:30 PM
rosscollins3

So the effects of stropping is certainly one issue that will be addressed. As well as the effects of corrosion.

For the corrosion aspect, we could take pictures of 3 ready-shave blades, then put it one in a cup of regular tap water, one in DI water, and another just in air for a certain amount of time and then look at them all again. We actually have a climate chamber that can control humidity and temperature if we feel it necessary to use that.

The same spot can be relocated each time if necessary with the simple mark of a sharpy, as sharpy marks will show up in the SEM and can be easily removed from steel.
04-23-2009, 05:33 PM
Leighton

Quote:

Originally Posted by rosscollins3

So the effects of stropping is certainly one issue that will be addressed. As well as the effects of corrosion.

For the corrosion aspect, we could take pictures of 3 ready-shave blades, then put it one in a cup of regular tap water, one in DI water, and another just in air for a certain amount of time and then look at them all again.

The same spot can be relocated each time if necessary with the simple mark of a sharpy, as sharpy marks will show up in the SEM and can be easily removed from steel.

I think just letting the razor sit in air for x number of days would be sufficient. Even if we had to wait for 7 days to get results. Then compare it with the razor you use daily and strop daily.
04-23-2009, 05:36 PM
mparker762

It's not just corrosion that we're interested in, but really the question of how does an edge age? Is it corrosion at all, or do the grains of steel fracture off over time, or what exactly?

The water is one source of corrosive influence, but the lather has an effect as well, as does the sebum that the blade is scraping off, and maybe even blood capillaries that the blade intersects as it scrapes off the top layer of skin. I don't know that we can really simulate that by placing the blade in a cup of water. Plus it's really easy to see this by just shaving with it and seeing what it looks like the next morning before stropping. Is the edge curled and rumpled? Is it pitted and crusted with rust? etc...

Edit: there is the additional question of why some razors get dull just sitting in their casket for a week or so, and corrosion seems an obvious culprit here. But maybe not - maybe the crystals at the edge curl enough over time that when you finally get around to stropping they break off... We really just don't know.
04-23-2009, 07:59 PM
Bart

This is exciting. A zillion thanks, Ross (I presume that's your first name).

I think it would be good to first know how many picture's you'll be able to do. I understand it takes about 30 minutes for setting up and shooting the photo. So, how many shots do we have?

Second question: Are we going to take one razor that you give different treatments and shoot each time at exactly the same spot. Or should we prepare a number razors of identical brand and make, that we prepare beforehand and send to you for taking the pictures?

Third: we should realize the responsibility. These experiments are likely not to be repeated for a long time and a lot of people would possibly be drawing conclusions from them. Hence we must be very careful to rule out the human factor.
This means: a new strop must be used, without any residue of pumice stone, or even CrO contamination. Also, in all respect, stropping does rely on a certain skillfulness.

Fourth: is it worth considering bringing a razor professional such as Glen or Lynn to the scene to cooperate with Rosscollins3 on this.

I hope none of these remarks sound disrespectful.

Bart.
04-23-2009, 08:25 PM
Lynn

I love it when the "Art" meets the "Science".

I always respect what both teach me.

Let me know if I can help in any way.

Thanks,

Lynn
04-23-2009, 08:54 PM
rosscollins3

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bart

I think it would be good to first know how many picture's you'll be able to do. I understand it takes about 30 minutes for setting up and shooting the photo. So, how many shots do we have?

It really depends on how many razors are in the vacuum chamber at a time. W/o scales it would be easier to fit more in. But I can take as many pictures as necessary, that just means it will take longer, but there is no real dead line as of yet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bart

Second question: Are we going to take one razor that you give different treatments and shoot each time at exactly the same spot. Or should we prepare a number razors of identical brand and make, that we prepare beforehand and send to you for taking the pictures?

That all depends on the design of the experiment. I plan to get a lot of information together and write a proposal at one point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bart

Third: we should realize the responsibility. These experiments are likely not to be repeated for a long time and a lot of people would possibly be drawing conclusions from them. Hence we must be very careful to rule out the human factor.
This means: a new strop must be used, without any residue of pumice stone, or even CrO contamination. Also, in all respect, stropping does rely on a certain skillfulness.

Yes you are very right about this Bart. This will be under the controls that will have to be dealt with accordingly. I think that if the data is recorded as a part of the experiment, the age and condition of the strop can be recorded as well. If we are going to get brand new strops, then we'll have to pull together and figure something out about that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bart

Fourth: is it worth considering bringing a razor professional such as Glen or Lynn to the scene to cooperate with Rosscollins3 on this.

I believe that a professional would have to either volunteer their time or we would have to compensate them for it.

A lot of problems arise when there is no money involved. Universities can write papers like this because they can get grants or use something from their budget. There will be many things that we may have to do without or just live with as our budget as of right now is $0.00. Keep in mind this is a Small or Zero budget operation, which many people have already volunteered to loan their materials.

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