Thread: HART Razor

Well, Charlie, even though you didn't quote me, I'm assuming that was at least partly directed at me. Please don't misinterpret people saying they think something is overpriced as "denigrating a newly formed company".

Your disdain for public criticism of people who weren't inclined to (what I would consider) waste $250 on a product is noted. However, I find it "very wrong" for people to unfairly misrepresent what I say as well. My position on this razor is that it is a low spec razor being sold for a premium price. I'm not saying that the work isn't quality. It is, I'm convinced of this on all accounts. However, it's a low spec razor that has a premium price tag. What's unfair about that? Why is it wrong to state that opinion publicly? No one is saying anything negative about the company or craftsmanship (at least I've not seen it). We have merely expressed concerns about a company that we would really like to see succeed potentially pricing themselves incorrectly. Obviously, the market will bear this out. However, there's little difference in your making judgments on our opinions as being wrong/ bad form or whatever and us saying we think they may have miscalculated. In fact, it's worse because you are making a personal judgment on a person's character.

We'd probably all be better off if we kept to the merits of the razor.

Rich, I'm not sure what you mean by "low spec," could you please clarify that.

I don't know much about making razors, but it seems to me like the steel is top notch, the workers are highly trained, the heat-treating process/location was carefully selected, and all of these elements were selected to work together (TZ posted about the steel, quenching, and heat treatment in the post that got moved).

Sure they look pretty plain, but then again so do many Livi regrinds...

Since I do actually own a Hart, hopefully the mentors will indulge my opinion on the subject.

Originally Posted by holli4pirating

I don't know much about making razors, but it seems to me like the steel is top notch, the workers are highly trained, the heat-treating process/location was carefully selected, and all of these elements were selected to work together (TZ posted about the steel, quenching, and heat treatment in the post that got moved).

The O1 steel is a great tool steel, but it corrodes easily. I have several O1 razors and all of them will tarnish within a few weeks given treatment that a TI or Dovo goes years without such signs. The Matte finish makes this worse, since it's harder to get the blade perfectly dry, and if you oil a blade that isn't completely dry then the oil just seals in the moisture... And microscopic corrosion is one of the major causes of dulling blades.

The heat treating process and service may have been carefully selected, but O1 is famously easy to heat treat, it's one of the steels that are usually recommended for beginners making their first knives because it's so easy to work and treat to a high level of quality.

The workers may well be highly trained, but they made at least two razors (mine and Riooso's) that were so narrow that they would not hold an edge. TI and Dovo have their flaws, but this is a really fundamental error by Hart that I believe speaks to theirs and Zowada's inexperience with the razor market. Nor do TI and Dovo make the even more fundamental error of designing a razor whose as-specced angle is so low that it must be honed with tape in order to reach the proper honing angle even if manufactured perfectly. This low design angle also contributed to the execution error above because it reduced the allowable manufacturing tolerances below the point where it could be produced with minimal wastage by the staff at hand. Had this razor been specced at a 17 degree honing angle instead of 14.2 degrees - this angle being readily deducible by examination of a dozen or so razors, or simply reading the available texts, then the 0.9 degrees of manufacturing error in my razor would have resulted in a completely acceptable 16.1 degree razor that holds an edge for four months instead of a 13.1 degree razor that loses its edge in seven days.

Originally Posted by holli4pirating

Sure they look pretty plain, but then again so do many Livi regrinds...

Do those Livi regrinds have matte finishes and plastic scales? The Hart razors are considerably plainer and underspecced than the Livi regrinds. Those Hart scales are awfully nice-looking plastic that look a lot like ebony from a distance, but they are nonetheless plastic complete with casting marks from the mould.

The Livi razors also use a great (though unknown) steel, and are also expertly heat treated - this has been demonstrated repeatedly over several years of experience with them. They also are known to take and hold an outstanding edge. The Hart razors may well have been carefully designed carefully manufactured and all aspects carefully integrated to work together. These are fine statements. Yet the reality is that the razor was designed with a honing angle 3 degrees too low, manufactured with honing angles a further degree below that, and not heat treated to a standard that would allow it to function under those conditions.

Now I am sure that the Hart guys will attempt to rectify their errors quickly. But I am dismayed that their stated "fix" to the honing angle problem is to reduce their known error by 60%. Not fix it completely by going to a 17 degree angle, no. Just reduce it by 60% by going from a 14.2 degree spec to a 16 degree spec.

By low spec, I was referencing several of the observations that MParker has made. While a custom razor's satin finish may be more challenging, due to bringing the razor to full polish to remove all flaws and then taking it back to a satin finish, a straight satin finish is less difficult than a mirror polish (lower spec). The plastic scales instead of premium materials (low spec). MParker speaks to the quality of the steel much better than I do, but from everything I've read and seen, it isn't the "best" that could be used. Consider the lack of jimps, spine work, thumbnotch, etc.... there are no frills, so this makes it a lower spec razor than other razors in it's price range. Also, the chosen grind is much easier to do than a full hollow (for obvious reasons). Had these razors been produced in a full hollow, and executed well, that would have been quite impressive and spoken to just how talented these ATs are.

Please, again, understand that I'm not denigrating the work that these guys are doing. I'm only pointing out that higher spec razors with solid reputations are available for less money. I've already made it clear that I want success for their venture, and I hope that the specsrice ratio gets more in line with the rest of the market at that price point. That's all I'm saying.

I swore I was staying out of this thread but one statement about marketing...nothing else

Dear Hart:

I think maybe, just maybe, somebody should have spent 2 weeks on 3 forums and found out who the 10 most experienced people were, and sent out 10 test razors before ever selling them... Note I did not say give anyone a razor I said have them test them, Honing Shaving Stropping...
Send a questionnaire with the razor and have it filled out... find out where the problems were first...

This is basic Market testing 101, Dear sirs you missed the boat on that one, sorry....

Originally Posted by mparker762

Now I am sure that the Hart guys will attempt to rectify their errors quickly. But I am dismayed that their stated "fix" to the honing angle problem is to reduce their known error by 60%. Not fix it completely by going to a 17 degree angle, no. Just reduce it by 60% by going from a 14.2 degree spec to a 16 degree spec.

I don't know if this contributes anything to the conversation... here are a pair of Zowada razors made by the man himself. They are dead on 7/8 and the spines measure .225. I am math challenged so I will depend on your expertise to translate those numbers into the bevel angle.

I was thinking in reading your post that since Mr. Zowada had much to do, if not all, with the design of the razor that perhaps the bevel angle of the Hart razors was deliberately on the shallow side ? Measuring my pair I tend to wonder.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I don't know if this contributes anything to the conversation... here are a pair of Zowada razors made by the man himself. They are dead on 7/8 and the spines measure .225. I am math challenged so I will depend on your expertise to translate those numbers into the bevel angle.

I was thinking in reading your post that since Mr. Zowada had much to do, if not all, with the design of the razor that perhaps the bevel angle of the Hart razors was deliberately on the shallow side ? Measuring my pair I tend to wonder.

That was something I was curious about, whether the Zowada razors also had shallow honing angles since they were damascus and tape is more commonly used on damascus, plus Zowada is an advocate of using multiple layers of tape. I had asked about this earlier in either this thread or the one on the other forum with no responses. But from your numbers it appears your Zowadas have 17.26 degree honing angles, just about perfect. With damascus as beautiful as Zowada's a lower honing angle and the resulting requirement for tape is at least defensible. But the Hart is aimed at a different market with different requirements.

Edit: Thanks to Tim Zowada for noticing that I did the above calculation using a 6/8 size. The correct angle for those razors is 14.77 degrees.

Well, this thread has gone entirely out of the realm of anything I understand, but as someone who is destined to spend a lot of money on razors in the future (i.e. the Hart's target market...) I would just like to say: prospects are not looking good.

Also, Jimmy...You have an ENTIRE DRAWER devoted to just Dubl Ducks?

Jimmy you gave me the idea

Guys a new thread please help out

http://straightrazorpalace.com/razor...tml#post464298

Originally Posted by mparker762

The heat treating process and service may have been carefully selected, but O1 is famously easy to heat treat, it's one of the steels that are usually recommended for beginners making their first knives because it's so easy to work and treat to a high level of quality.

sorry got to address this O1 is often said to be the best starter steel and that is cause of the fact that you get it up to 1550 and quench inn jsut aobut any oil like quench and it will harden
to heat treat O1 like that is foolish but it will get you a workable knife blade
to truely get the most of the steel you need to soak the blank for at least 10 min at temp (without over heating ) let me know how many blade smiths and beginners have a computer controled kiln or salt pots
often the case is "i heat treat my O1 with a torch and by eye and it works jsut fine for me "

the kiln was my first big $$ buy cause no matter how ugly a knife if you nail the heat treat it can be a good knife (maybe ajust the blade grind to make it great)
no matter how nice the blade looks if the heat treat is bad the blade will be crap