Thread: Why are Damascus steel razors so expensive?

ok. i've got that out of my system. i'm new and that damuscus TI looked cool. But after looking at it some more, the pattern didn't look that interesting and if it's not gonna shave ALOT better, &*%@(* it.

so, i've already got a DOVO 41, which is a stainless steel one, i believe. I think it shaves nice, but what do I know? Don't have anything to compare to it.

so, i think i'm gonna get a TI carbon steel one. forgot the model number at this point. it's a 5/8, about $170

i'm not quite ready to get into vintage at this time. too new. don't now what to get.

yes, i've already got good (to me) shaving gear. got a Rooney super badger hair ( yes I've tried cheaper brushes, didn't like 'em, Got me some Trummpers Sandlewood shave cream (yes I've tried cheaper cream soap. They are ok. I like the Proaso and Col. COnk Amber) Got a beginers strop from Ken Rup. It's good to learn on. Already nicked it some. (ok, alot) Rough side has got that green stuff on it (Crom Ox?)

Jumped the gun a little on the honing stuff. Got a Norton 4k/8k combo and a Belgian Coti stone. (That's probably an 8k grit, right? so it might have been pointless to spend the 100$ an that since the Norton is already an 8k)

I say I jumped the gun a little on the honing stuff because maybe, after more research, I should have just got the Nawa (sp?) 4k,8k,12k stones, but I didn't.

And I'll be honest with you, while I appreciate all the honing advice I'm finding on the internet, I'm a little overwhelmed and sick of it.

I got my stones, good or bad, and I'm gonna try to learn to hone. I'm sure I'll screw up, but that is how I learned best.

thanks for listening

Originally Posted by Toplin

Jumped the gun a little on the honing stuff. Got a Norton 4k/8k combo and a Belgian Coti stone. (That's probably an 8k grit, right? so it might have been pointless to spend the 100$ an that since the Norton is already an 8k)

I say I jumped the gun a little on the honing stuff because maybe, after more research, I should have just got the Nawa (sp?) 4k,8k,12k stones, but I didn't.

...

I got my stones, good or bad, and I'm gonna try to learn to hone. I'm sure I'll screw up, but that is how I learned best.

You've got a good set of hones. With that setup you can do pretty much anything that you will ever need to do on a razor. The abrasive particles in the coticule are actually much coarser than 8k (~12 micron IIRC), but because they're roundish instead of jagged they actually leave a much smoother and sharper edge than the smaller abrasive particles found in the 8k side of the Norton.

Devote yourself to mastering those hones, and you'll be a happy shaver for decades to come.

Originally Posted by mparker762

You've got a good set of hones. With that setup you can do pretty much anything that you will ever need to do on a razor. The abrasive particles in the coticule are actually much coarser than 8k (~12 micron IIRC), but because they're roundish instead of jagged they actually leave a much smoother and sharper edge than the smaller abrasive particles found in the 8k side of the Norton.

Devote yourself to mastering those hones, and you'll be a happy shaver for decades to come.

i'm gonna try my best with the hones..

wonder if i'm gonna mess up my nice dovo??

Originally Posted by Toplin

i'm gonna try my best with the hones..

wonder if i'm gonna mess up my nice dovo??

Toplin, what mparker762 said is on the money as it usually is. Those hones are just fine. If I was you I would look for some cheaper vintage razors in decent condition and learn to hone on those. That way you won't have to worry about messing the Dovo up.

As far as Damascus and the TI. It is a subtle pattern unlike the customs from Mastro Livi, Joe Chandler or Robert Williams to name a few. After you've been at it awhile and you're sure you will stick with it look for one of the customs in the classifieds. They come up every so often and usually sell for a couple of hundred less than when they are new.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Toplin, what mparker762 said is on the money as it usually is. Those hones are just fine. If I was you I would look for some cheaper vintage razors in decent condition and learn to hone on those. That way you won't have to worry about messing the Dovo up.

As far as Damascus and the TI. It is a subtle pattern unlike the customs from Mastro Livi, Joe Chandler or Robert Williams to name a few. After you've been at it awhile and you're sure you will stick with it look for one of the customs in the classifieds. They come up every so often and usually sell for a couple of hundred less than when they are new.

thanks jimmy

that's just it. I don't like the "custom" look of the Damascus steel. I thought Damascus Steel had AMAZING shaving abilities above and beyond stainless steel and carbon steel. I kinda liked the TI exactly because it 's custom look was subtle. The Livi, and others were too over the top with the pattern.

and the more I read, the more I became disinterested in Damascus Steel altogether (at least considering the price). The dovo i have now is stainless steel, so i'm looking at carbon dovo's now (and TI's) all in the under 200$ price range.

I have made up my mind to learn to hone with the one razor I have. (the dovo). If I do mess it up, I'll just get it pro-honed or it will just give me an excuse to get a new razor, honed by Lynn, and I'll keep the dovo as the "learner." I'm just hard headed that way when it comes to learning stuff. I just go for it, good or ill.

Originally Posted by Toplin

that's just it. I don't like the "custom" look of the Damascus steel. I thought Damascus Steel had AMAZING shaving abilities above and beyond stainless steel and carbon steel.

Keep in mind that there are two very different steels that are called "damascus". The pattern-welded type, which is made from folding and forge-welding steels into layers, is what we've been discussing in this thread. The other type of damascus is the middle-eastern type made from wootz steel, which is the basis for many of the wild claims about damascus's cutting ability and durability. These historical claims have been attributed to pattern-welded damascus because many people are not aware that there is a difference in the two steels. Wootz damascus is a very different beast, and is still not very well understood even by research metallurgists who have spent their careers studying it.

It is possible that this type of damascus might have some magical shaving ability, I suppose. There have been razors made from reproduction wootz - Joe Chandler made three a year or so ago - but it's an open question how closely the reproduction wootz matches the genuine historical stuff. Personally I'm skeptical (edit: about any magical shaving properties of wootz damascus). Tamahagane has all sorts of mystical properties as well, and I've got two razors made from Takeda Tamahagane and they're very good shavers, but not eye-popping by any means. I've got some solingens that I picked up for ~$50 that shave as well or better.

The page for the TI 5/8 damascus razor at Classic Shaving claims that it's made from wootz, but Mike Blue (who has been participating in this thread, and who knows his way around both types of damascus) doesn't believe that it is, and having compared my two TI's to the real thing I don't believe it either.

Edit: the TI 5/8 damascus page at Classic Shaving no longer claims that it's made of wootz. It does however, say "When genuine Damascus Steel is used as a blade in shaving razors, the edge that can be attained is absolutely fantastic. Routine stropping will keep the edge fresh for years and the quality of the shave in terms of closeness and comfort is beyond description" which was a much stronger statement back when the page actually claimed the razor was genuine wootz damascus

Originally Posted by mparker762

Edit: the TI 5/8 damascus page at Classic Shaving no longer claims that it's made of wootz. It does however, say "When genuine Damascus Steel is used as a blade in shaving razors, the edge that can be attained is absolutely fantastic. Routine stropping will keep the edge fresh for years and the quality of the shave in terms of closeness and comfort is beyond description" which was a much stronger statement back when the page actually claimed the razor was genuine wootz damascus

Hmm, I think that's exactly what they are claiming. Here's the very first line of the description of the razor:
" The only Genuine 100% hand hammer forged Damascus Steel razors being make anywhere in Europe."
They don't say 'wootz', but they use the same 'genuine damascus steel' to describe the razor for sale, for the historical blurb, as well as for the abilities of a razor forged of such steel.
But I don't own or haven't ever tried one of these, and it looks like yours and thebigspendur's field tests don't quite support the promises in the marketing.

Originally Posted by mparker762

TI 5/8 damascus page at Classic Shaving no longer claims that it's made of wootz. It does however, say "When genuine Damascus Steel is used as a blade in shaving razors, the edge that can be attained is absolutely fantastic. Routine stropping will keep the edge fresh for years and the quality of the shave in terms of closeness and comfort is beyond description" which was a much stronger statement back when the page actually claimed the razor was genuine wootz damascus

well, this is why I wanted to buy it. Because of the above description

Originally Posted by mparker762

Keep in mind that there are two very different steels that are called "damascus". The pattern-welded type, which is made from folding and forge-welding steels into layers, is what we've been discussing in this thread. The other type of damascus is the middle-eastern type made from wootz steel, which is the basis for many of the wild claims about damascus's cutting ability and durability.
.......

MParker may have given us the best summary in a single post.

Others are clearly mixing old technology and modern technology
(and descriptions) which may be adding to the confusion.

Wootz is interesting and the best summary I could fine is here:

Wootz steel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A key component of wootz is the micro carbides which are uncommon
in good razor steels (traces of tungsten and/or vanadium).

Modern Damascus mostly refer to pattern-welded types that
are are just beautiful.

If my information is correct Japanese swords were folded from iron
and with each fold and weld carbon was introduced building up
the carbon content and reducing the slag factor. In some cases
the carbon was introduced by setting the blade in straw then hammering
the weld tight.

Welding has also come a long way. Modern smiths use flux that
some of the old folks did not have. The old guys almost had to
burn the steel to get it to weld -- right at the harry edge.

Some of the more interesting modern pattern Damascus is generated by
explosive welding out in the desert. This drastically reduces the cost
of some very interesting patterned steel.

Then there are modern clad steel where the central layer has a
composition that is unsuitable for the entire blade. Often this center
is brittle/ fragile high carbon steel surrounded by a less brittle or less
costly iron or steel. At one time quality steel was expensive to the
point that it was often welded to less costly iron. Carpentry tools
and even single bevel Japanese sushi knives are good examples of
this.

Shun has taken advantage of modern welding and cladding by
cladding a central vg10 core with nicely patterned but tougher
outer layers. It really does work for kitchen knives. Shun uses
v10 for the inner core which has a lot of carbides in the end product.

As for modern Damascus and razors -- I do not know how well
they shave. Now if some one was willing to loan me a handful
of different makes and styles I would be happy to embark on a 25 year
study. My fee would be to keep two of the samples.

I have the Norton 200/1000 and 4000/8000 hones and a "barber's home" (don't know thagrit) for my vintage str8s but for my new Dovo, I still have the certificate from SRD for a sharpening and I'll probably keep sending it back and pay for it to be honed. I'll work on the pickup truck (vintage) str8s myself but my Cadillac (Dovo) will probably always go to the mechanic in order to continually assess my honing ability...