Thread: Razors under a microscope

Originally Posted by honedright

You don't see "teeth" in those photos? They're not exaggerated like a saw edge, but when I look at those photos, following the fine striations to the very edge of the razor, there is definitely a micro-serration. Very slight, not very uniform, but certainly there. At least to my eye it is present. Look at fig 9 SEM for instance.

Oddly enough that was one of the photos I was talking about. There are irregularities along the edges shown in the rightmost photos (at 800x and 750x). But nothing that I would consider "teeth" in the sense that is usually discussed around here, for one thing the few tooth-like artifacts are sparse, irregularly distributed, and don't appear similarly on the left and right sides of the edge. There are a few larger artifacts that look like microchips, and wide swathes of pretty regular if slightly wavy edge in between where there are extended areas of folded-over burr, depending on which side you're looking at. In particular, look at the leftmost photo which is taken head-on to the edge, and taken at a much higher magnification (3000x) than the right photos. Presumably the teeth should really show up well here. You can see the scratches in the bevel as they approach the edge, but where they leave the blade they don't appear have created corresponding teeth, there's just bits of folded-over burr, and at least in this left-most photo it appears that the microchip-like spots merely appear to be places where the burr is broken off.

Given the prominence of the burrs, it's interesting that the straight razor in these photos is described as being "freshly stropped". I believe this confirms Verhoeven's controversial finding later in his paper that stropping on leather has no affect on burrs, as it had no effect on his test blades and appears to have had no effect on an actual straight razor as honed by a straight shaver.

Edit: I've attached the photo in question for the benefit of the others...

What would be interesting is to see the same types of SEM photos of a razors edge after variations in honing and stropping. For instance, honing straight across instead of a diagonal X pattern. And then unstropped, stropped straight across, and stropped X pattern. And then correlate the visible state of the edge with things like HHT, TPT, and shaving quality.

Maybe just semantics, I see "teeth" you see "irregularities." For all practical purposes as regards a razor, they may be the same.

And another point, Mr. William Dauksch, the one mentioned in the paper who has used a straight razor for several decades, and who's razor was SEM'd for the study, for all we know he may be only mediocre at honing and stropping?

I've thought about contacting the micro department of a university to see if the SEM's can be hired out for a series of razor tests. I think the going rate is not unreasonable, but who knows how long this would take? Also, my fear is the differences would be very subtle even at 3,000X.

Originally Posted by mparker762

Given the prominence of the burrs, it's interesting that the straight razor in these photos is described as being "freshly stropped". I believe this confirms Verhoeven's controversial finding later in his paper that stropping on leather has no affect on burrs, as it had no effect on his test blades and appears to have had no effect on an actual straight razor as honed by a straight shaver.

So it was supposed to have been freshly stropped, but we don't know whether on leather only or linen plus leather. Also, we don't know how many laps it was stropped, and we don't know what it looked like before stropping.

Originally Posted by honedright

What would be interesting is to see the same types of SEM photos of a razors edge after variations in honing and stropping. For instance, honing straight across instead of a diagonal X pattern. And then unstropped, stropped straight across, and stropped X pattern. And then correlate the visible state of the edge with things like HHT, TPT, and shaving quality.?

there is this article in the wiki: http://straightrazorpalace.com/srpwi..._various_hones, which compares the edges of different types of hones, including CrOx and .5 micron diamond paste. Maybe you/we should ask the author to expand his work...though it should be noted that he used a regular close-up shot, not an electron microscope. Still quite effective at highlighting key differences, but nothing compares to an SEM.....

Just took the Art of Shaving out of my bookmarks. LONG LIVE SRP the true art of shaving.

Hey, guys. I'm the person that wrote that article.

First thing's first: Nightbreed, sorry we screwed up! I didn't actually assemble the gallery for that article (just the microscopic close-ups), but I apologize on behalf of everybody at Giz. We love using images from other people, but we should have asked. Please let me know what you'd like me to do. I'd be happy to give you credit in the article for your image, or just remove the image entirely. Email or DM me and I'll get it taken care of tout suite.

As for the rest of the discussion... I actually was originally going to try to get some time on an SEM for all this, then was dissuaded by the lab geeks at UO and encouraged to stay optical. But since the article went up, I was contacted by some blade engineers for major razor companies who started talking about all the molecular engineering that goes into coating (although he asked to remain anonymous). Now I'm curious to get all these blades under an SEM myself, although that will have to wait for another day.

And as for the straight razors under the microscope, that T-I was not honed or stropped at all by me, because I was worried that my poor technique might actually made it worse than its from-the-factory finish. It would be very interesting to do a before-and-after of a blade from the factory and one stropped by someone with real skill. (Which as I hope came through in the article is definitely not me! Although I am keeping the razors from ClassicShaving.com for a couple more weeks to try to learn the techniques.)

Anyway, I'm glad you guys found the article worth discussing, and again, Nightbreed, please let me know what you want me to do and I'll get it taken care of. My email is [email protected].

Glad i took the time to post this now

ian

Hi Joel,

First of all thanks for taking the time to come here and make things right, whatever ends up happening with that image. So many writers wouldn't have bothered to make the effort. Kudos to you.

Second, I sincerely hope that you'll stick around SRP for awhile and learn about straight shaving. You might find that you really enjoy those razors from ClassigShaving.

Finally, keep us posted on any future articles you do with regard to this topic. As you've noticed, there are a lot of people here with a great interest in this, and the input might be useful to you as to what to look at in an experiment. Also, I'd be willing to bet that several people would be willing to send blades out that have been finished by various techniques, to see what they look like under a SEM.

Thanks for putting together that article, and thanks again for stopping by to make things right regarding Nightbreed's picture.

Originally Posted by joeljohnson

Nightbreed, please let me know what you want me to do and I'll get it taken care of.