Thread: Extra Hollow Full Hollow and tough beards

Thanks for bringing this up, I've wondered a lot about this as I also have a really tough beard. When I got my Hart razor, I thought it shaved so well just because it was a quarter hollow grind. But over the last few weeks, after comparing it with some of my other razors, it seems to me that it shaves so well (for me) because the shape of its edge makes it easier to make the shaving passes that work best for me. It has a modest smiling edge. I'm going to test this over the next few weeks to see if this is true, for me, anyway.

I haven't found there to be a ton of difference between different grinds, as long as they have all been honed by the same person.
But I do have this, sales pitch? Maybe. There are alot of variables other then just grind.

Originally Posted by Gibbs

Example, say one person has a rather stiff larger face whisker and the extra hollow glides along the face and connects. Is it more likely to flex up and skim over the whisker, cutting of course, but leaving the whisker with a longer "pointed" end on it (the whisker) as compared to a 1/2 or Full Hollow that has enough stiffness in the blade edge, to meet the hair and literally "plow right through", leaving behind a more blunt end on the whisker?

I think that is a valid point.

Let me try to make one too:
In your example you are saying the blade glides along the skin.
The point I would like to make about that, is that there is presumably an angle that the blade is presented to said whisker.
If you are leading that razor down your face in say a 30 degree angle, what does the edge do when it meets that strand, which for the sake of argument is standing out at a 90 degree angle? (with proper stretching)
Will the blade then do as you say and skim over the strand of hair, or will it catch, or be enough slowed down, to allow the forces applied from behind, at an angle, force the blade to bend the opposite way?

I'm not saying that it will, what I am saying is that with the proper technique, you can find that sweetspot where it doesn't flex much either way.
And the edge itself is the same regardless.
I believe this to be the main reason to why newcomers are encouraged by some to go with a bit stiffer blade, it leaves that part of the learning curve to a minimum. And I can attest to that there is enough to learn when starting out.

Well, that's how I see it.

Your whiskers do not see the blade. They do not care if it's hollow grind or wedge. They only see the very edge no different than a guy about to be guillotined. He doesn't care the grind does he? He's only concerned with the very edge. As long as its proper sharp that's all that matters. If you find there is a difference its because you are manipulating the blade differently or are applying more pressure.

It is true, that the edge is all that contacts the whisker. However, there is that "structure" behind the edge and that is what gives flex and bend. If all that mattered was an edge, why would there be wedge, 1/4 hollow 1/2 hollow, Full Hollow or even Extra Hollow? I read a lot, in here and in many forums, and kind of like Vance on NCIS, I usually remember everything. I remember a guy posting one time about the Extra Hollow that he tried and it was so flexing, that he took out a big chunk of skin on his chin as the blade flexed to his heavier whiskers. He sold the razor and vowed never to go back to Extra Hollow singing blades because of it. John Crowley, in a phone conversation just last night asked me if I had a wiry beard? He said he would not recommend an Extra Hollow ground for a wiry beard since they don't do well with coarse beards. My wife, who went to beautician school, agrees that there are differences in whisker attributes, soft, normal or wiry. You see, Thebigspender, it's not about the edge but it better be supported well. Or else you could just glue a Double Edge razor to a stick and shave with it. But, where would be the support of the edge?

So I think there's a lot to a ground blade. How it's ground translates on how well the blade will or will not flex on your face.

Gibbs, do you believe that because someone posted on the Internet that he cut himself as a cosequence of using a full hollow razor as opposed to, say, a quarter hollow that it's factual? Sure, you remember reading it and the person that posted it probably believes it, but does that make it true? My personal experience is that the grind of the blade (excluding the shape of the point) has nothing to do with whether I cut myself or not. In fact, I find the theory that it does to be preposterous.

Perhaps I don't have a sufficiently wiry or heavy beard to experience the difference, but I get equally good results from several grinds. The subjective aspects are far from identical, but the quality of the shave is comparable. Predicting the effectiveness of a razor based on someone's self analysis of their beard is risky business anyway. My definition of wiry or coarse might overlap someone else's definition of average. Am I average plus?...wiry minus?...it's not an exact science, which is why YMMV.

I remember the first time I read on the forum about a member feeling a full hollow flexing on his face when he shaved with it. Next time I shaved with one I noticed it too. Not with all but with some. There is no doubt in my mind that we all don't have the same density or thickness of whiskers. Being a pro tattooer for a couple of decades I know we don't have the same skin.

That said, if you aren't a barber shaving many different people how do you know if your beard is tough or not ? Compared to what ? I used to think mine was but reading descriptions of other members and their shaves has me convinced mine couldn't be. I can get bbs in two passes every time and one pass sometimes. I've never shaved anyone else's whiskers so cannot compare.

Now as far as grind, most pro barbers I've known, and that is one hell of a lot of them, used full hollow ground razors most of the time. They encountered every whisker type there is day after day. This would lead me to believe that a well honed quality full hollow will shave any beard type as well as any other grind ..... YMMV

"Am I average plus?...wiry minus?...it's not an exact science, which is why YMMV." How true Bill.
I never said that I believed the gentleman, nor did I question him about it. He was a seasoned shaver, some 10 years IIRC, so it was not some newbie just getting a bad cut on a razor. He had been at this a very long time. He felt, objectively, that because the way the razor flexed, it gave way to "his" cut on his beard. I don't what kind of whiskers I have for sure. I don't have a whisker-meter doo-hicky that can tell me I have a light, normal, or heavy beard. And I can honestly say I have had good shaves from very stiff near 1/4 wedge Ramapo Co (circa 1854 with a smile) to thinner Wade & Butcher Extra Hollow Ground and a lot in-between, mostly thin though. Good shaves all around. I shaved tonight with a Wade & Butcher Extra Hollow Ground, and tried out a J.A. Henckels Full Hollow, along with one I wanted to see how it came along for honing, a Peter Hennes Haan-Solingen. Man is it nice .. and sharp! Looks like a full hollow. Second pass with my DOVO 6/8 full hollow.

My point is, there must be a reason that they made Extra Hollow Ground and even declare it as such: Thiers-Issard and DOVO do in their Extra Hollow "Singing" razors, though the DOVO beat the TI in that regards I've been told. Given that all that matters is the edge, then why the extra bother and the resulting rejection of failed attempts of Extra Hollow if 1/4 or 1/2 will do? Was there a comfort feeling on these grinds that differs? I know.. YMMV. LOL But really, in the industry there is always seemingly the reference to the grind. If it matters not, then why even mention it?

Originally Posted by Gibbs

If it matters not, then why even mention it?

Singing razor ? Maybe it is the birds chirping that I hear from my tinnitus but I haven't heard a razor "sing" yet. They call them Silver Steel, Manganese Steel, Super Keen Cutting Steel, Pumamaster Steel, and God only knows what all, to get people to buy them. Same reason they produce different grinds and mention it.

As Robert Doyle said in "Collecting Straight Razors" 1980, "By 1870 the full hollow blade took over the market. The large wedge blade was losing popularity and was doomed in 1880 with the invention of machine forging." If it wasn't for the resurgence of popularity in straight razor shaving by a niche market the few heavier grind razors available probably wouldn't exist. IMHO.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Singing razor ? Maybe it is the birds chirping that I hear from my tinnitus but I haven't heard a razor "sing" yet. They call them Silver Steel, Manganese Steel, Super Keen Cutting Steel, Pumamaster Steel, and God only knows what all, to get people to buy them....

You forgot Kayser Ellison Best Sheffield Silver Steel, I know, I got one, a Hammond Extra with jimps top and bottom 5/8 Full Hollow and magnetic to boot, LOL.
It may be that the extra hollow are a real treat to shave with, but the Full Hollows have cut many a whisker. The "Singing" razor is supposed to give a slight ring to the vibration of the blade. DOVO's Prima Klang is German for "First or (primary) Note/Sound. You would think there would be some logic to having such an extreme ground, an Extra Hollow Grind, or else the word would be out and no one would pay much attention to Prima Klangs or the Thiers-Issard Carbonsong C135 Extra Hollow razors, or any other Extra Hollow ground razor.