Thread: Bartmaan Manganese Steel.question

Originally Posted by Caledonian

Well, I don't believe we have heard from anybody who knows more than the original poster about what is in this razor. Not many of gssixgun's names are really complete flim-flam, although one or two are. Crucible and electrically melted steels are good things we take for granted now, but were worth mentioning before they became the norm, and some plain steels did benefit from sub-zero quenching. Mind you, Never Hone sounds like a useful trick if you can do it.

I do believe you, like many others miss the point with these names it is a common mitake made when you attribute processes today, and relate them to the advertising of old... The point being that the advertising on most all of these just wasn't true / or was very mis-leading...

Same as in the 60's every product on the shelves was "New and Improved" it wasn't until much later that the laws were put into place that made it illegal to advertise it as "New" unless the actual formula of the product had changed by a certain percentage...
I hope that helps you understand it a bit better now... Just because Sub Zero was on the front of the razor don't mistake it for the Cyro processes of today

seems I bring everyone to share their opinion here =D ::: ^_^ Will put pix of my Hard beard Filamonica sometime in next week. Cant wait to see what the 'whole' deal is with that razor.
But for me managese steel question has been answered. Ad hook used by firm thats all. But plz share all lovely options.

I certainly didn't want to dispute your views on advertising, and still less to patronise, which would obviously be wrong on a board as civilised as this. I'm well aware how uncontrolled and unreliable nineteenth century advertising often was, although it seems questionable whether we are better off being told that if we use the product we will become the sort of men who drive Porsches, and whose every word exceptionally formed ladies dote upon. Some human failings are timeless.

I've proven unable to clear my understanding, though, of associating some of those terms with the facts that electrically melted crucible steel actually did replace the cementation process (and was cheaper and easier too), that deeply hollow ground razors were indeed easier to hone than the earlier wedges, and that extremely cold quenching was considered superior before people realised that the low gassing of brine does it better. Shakespeare mentions "A sword of Spain, the ice-brook's temper", and I've been unsuccessful in getting out of my mind the association of that with the apparent furnace sites I found in the hills above Toledo, close to what in winter must be very cold running water. Nothing in the quenching process is likely to be confused with cryogenic processing, which comes after it, and usually after conventional tempering.

I'd agree that such claims were sometimes false, sometimes exaggerated, sometimes just what everybody was doing, and a few never had a chance of being true at any time. In fact I don't think both of us are disagreeing with anything.

Ahhhh! So refreshing to see a potential difference of opinion settled in such a gentlemanly manner! I'm liking this place more and more.

I seem to remember, probably a reference made to Zulu legend in a work of fiction, that some tribes believed that quenching the freshly formed metal that fell from the sky (iron from meteorites I expect) in the blood of an animal sacrificed to the deity of choice was supposed to endow the blade with mystic powers. While faith is a powerful thing, I'm pretty sure it was the quenching of the iron the gave it the "powers" rather than the deity of choice.

On a more technical note, I know that quench hardening works by bringing the steel below re-crystallisation temperature faster than would occur otherwise, producing a fine grained structure and that by varying the quenching medium (among other things) that granularity can be quite effectively controlled. This gives the metallurgist/engineer/smith/witch doctor the ability to tailor the characteristics of the steel to suit purpose as well as supplying marketing people with a whole raft of "buzz words" that they cannot begin to understand, but they can use in their lie sheets errrr I mean "product descriptions".

I'll drop a little quote here from Greg The Stop Sign by TISM:
"The rich kid becomes a junky
The poor kid an advertiser
What a tragic waste of potential
Being a junky's not so good, either"

Originally Posted by MickRussell

...I seem to remember, probably a reference made to Zulu legend in a work of fiction, that some tribes believed that quenching the freshly formed metal that fell from the sky (iron from meteorites I expect) in the blood of an animal sacrificed to the deity of choice was supposed to endow the blade with mystic powers. While faith is a powerful thing, I'm pretty sure it was the quenching of the iron the gave it the "powers" rather than the deity of choice.

It really wasn't until the early 20th century that a lot of this began to be understood outside this perspective. Still, people want to believe in myths and magics even to this day. Someone has often said that what an ordinary farmer knows today about bringing in a productive crop would make him or her a wizard a couple hundred years ago.

On a more technical note, I know that quench hardening works by bringing the steel below re-crystallisation temperature faster than would occur otherwise, producing a fine grained structure and that by varying the quenching medium (among other things) that granularity can be quite effectively controlled. This gives the metallurgist/engineer/smith/witch doctor the ability to tailor the characteristics of the steel to suit purpose as well as supplying marketing people with a whole raft of "buzz words" that they cannot begin to understand, but they can use in their lie sheets errrr I mean "product descriptions".

This is a good understanding of the potential in the process and the human behavior component. Some who heat treat blades still don't fully understand this. Some who are very good at understanding it, don't get credit for it, or simply are bad at advertising it. You're leaning heavily in the "wizard" direction Mick....

haha this is going to be WAR of beliefs I can see it coming ^_^ ; I think we have done it again. And this time not only is the cow out of the barn but is in Sahara desert =D ::: personally I'm not that far in my quest of history to care about ads. Its the whole exprience that i'm after. Anyways a fun fact I rem reading on the board that Hard Beard Filamonica 8/8 went for 750+ well mines past 820 mark. Unfreakin real but true. Anyways guys I get a day off frm work so I will try my other hobby (not so honorable one) of wasting some funds in not so honorable places.

War? Not with me. I've been known to "wax lyrical" in the manner of the old Victorian/Edwardian era hawkers, though only for entertainment value. I'm far too cynical to take anything that comes out of a marketing department, from any era, with anything but a barrel of salt. I've also learned that wherever the old timers found something worked but put the reasoning down to mysticism, there was always a scientific explanation just waiting to be found by those who care to look rather than write things off out of hand. Just because they didn't know WHY something worked for them doesn't mean it won't work for us.

won the Filamonica Barbar Duscar .8/8..damange was astronomical. But a damn fine shaver. If anyone knows how much BARBERS WADE&BUTCHER Straight Razor run for just pm me... I dont want prices flying and Mods gettin upset its not in rite place. Razor is listed as "used" but excellent condition. No markings/nicks on blade etc....

Originally Posted by darkraijin

won the Filamonica Barbar Duscar .8/8..damange was astronomical. But a damn fine shaver. If anyone knows how much BARBERS WADE&BUTCHER Straight Razor run for just pm me... I dont want prices flying and Mods gettin upset its not in rite place. Razor is listed as "used" but excellent condition. No markings/nicks on blade etc....

Thanks for not asking for a value to be posted. A good way to get the current selling prices would be on ebay. Search for your item w/o searching descriptions and then select completed listings on the left side of the screen.

That's right, or search the SRP classifieds. Prices on eBay might be a shade lower, and you are more likely to find an undetected bargain, most likely in an unfashionable name people don't know about. But you are also more likely to find things badly described or misdescribed on eBay, through either honest ignorance of the subject, the triumph of optimism over experience, or a flamboyant try-on. The classifieds are a safer way to buy, and a safer guide.

If you intend to buy on eBay, though, I would disagree with searching titles only. Sometimes the biggest bargains are to be had from "old razor", where they just happen to mention in the text that it has the name of someone called Wade and Butcher on it.

There are other routes to a bargain. Bad pictures are a tremendous help to those who don't mind a modest gamble. You can ask about any point, such as edge nicks or whether a dark spot can be felt with the fingernail, and sellers rarely go out on a limb by lying then. I have a beautiful Cragg "Hamburgh Line" razor I bought cheaply, and found a roughness of the edge honed out beautifully without producing too wide a bevel. There were also plenty of makers who are unknown nowadays, but made razors just as well as the famous ones. You have to look for a good grinding and riveting job, an absence of excessive hone wear unless it is evenly excessive (all along both spine and bevels), and a nice sense of proportion and line.