Thread: Henckel Difference

In layman terms Cryo treating hardened steels releases a lot of the transition molecules to the hardened state (transforming any retained austenite to martensite) and causes the carbides to be packed denser in the metal similar to forging. The carbides make the metal hard and are formed during the initial heat treating. This does not make the metal any harder than prior to the cryo threament but does make it more wear resistant. In theory, the denser carbides will result in a smoother shave. It is the carbide particles that make the metal hard and there are softer metal molocules between the carbide molecules. There is a metal named Carbide which is extremely hard and brittle. It is usually cut with diamonds such as a diamond grinding wheel or by electrical discharge machining (EDM). Cutting with EDM can be problematic as the carbides are sintered with a binder material which is non conductive and can produce chipping and cracks. With Henckels, Friodur refers to a cryo treatment of the blade.

Originally Posted by mainaman

Hardness and abrasion resistance are two different characteristics of each steel.
White #2 steel can be taken to HRC 61 and still be easy to sharpen, stainless can be at HRC 58 and be tougher to deal with than white#2.

you can read more about the different properties of steel with respect to edge holding and sharpening here:
Knife Steel FAQ

and we get back to hardness and toughness not being the same thing
Hardness is

Resistance of metal to plastic deformation, usually by indentation. However, the term may also refer to stiffness or temper, or to resistance to scratching, abrasion, or cutting. It is the property of a metal, which gives it the ability to resist being permanently, deformed (bent, broken, or have its shape changed), when a load is applied. The greater the hardness of the metal, the greater resistance it has to deformation.

Hardness

Originally Posted by MickRussell

and we get back to hardness and toughness not being the same thing

Yes it is what I said too.

Originally Posted by mainaman

Yes it is what I said too.

No, you said that hardness and abrasion resistence are different, which I've just shown, with reference to a definitive source, is not the case.

Originally Posted by MickRussell

No, you said that hardness and abrasion resistence are different, which I've just shown, with reference to a definitive source, is not the case.

Wear resistance : Just like it sounds, wear resistance is the ability to withstand abrasion. Generally speaking, the amount, type, and distribution of carbides within the steel is what determines wear resistance.
Strength: The ability to take a load without permanently deforming. For many types of jobs, strength is extremely important. Any time something hard is being cut, or there's lateral stress put on the edge, strength becomes a critical factor. In steels, strength is directly correlated with hardness -- the harder the steel, the stronger it is. Note that with the Rockwell test used to measure hardness in a steel, it is the hardness of the steel matrix being measured, not the carbides. This, it's possible for a softer, weaker steel (measuring low on the Rockwell scale) to have more wear resistance than a harder steel. S60V, even at 56 Rc, still has more and harder carbides than ATS-34 at 60 Rc, and thus the S60V is more wear resistant, while the ATS-34 would be stronger.

I think hardness and toughness or abrasion resistance are different things.
your source talks about several different types of hardness at the same time without even mentioning the differences.
Scratch hardness, indentation hardness, Rebound hardness. there lies the confusion I believe.
Example, tools steel @ HRC 60 much more abrasion resistant than White #2 @ HRC 63, i.e White # 2 sharpens in minutes, tool steel sharpens a lot longer. Hope this helps.

So,

In any case, the Pre WWII carbon Henckels tend to be outstanding shavers and the Friodur's which are stainless from the 50's? 60's and 70's? are also usually very nice shavers. Not sure how long they made the King Cutter's and a few other carbon models, but when you can find them, especially in good condition, grab one. Can't say the same for the new ones just out. They can shave........

Have fun,

Lynn

I see what you did there. Fair enough.

Is there a difference from Henckels razors and the graef schmidt razors?