Thread: WWI Razor? James Barber - Hand Forged

Thanks for the link, so I could save the pic!
According to the blade shape and scales material, I would say your razor is older than WWI.
Just a suggestion: couldn't the RPA have been branded by some soldier who wanted to personalize his razor?
If we had some historian expert in the cyphers used by armies it would be a blessing...

Originally Posted by Mauri

Thanks for the link, so I could save the pic!
According to the blade shape and scales material, I would say your razor is older than WWI.
Just a suggestion: couldn't the RPA have been branded by some soldier who wanted to personalize his razor?
If we had some historian expert in the cyphers used by armies it would be a blessing...

That's what I was thinking about the RPA brand as well.

The one thing I'm certain of is that I'll be cleaning this razor up and giving it its third(?) life.

I reckon those initials are 'RFA' for Royal Field Artillery - if someone had access to a list of RFA service numbers, then you could identify the soldier who owned that razor.

Regards,
Neil

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

The company was started by Isaac Barber in the 1820s. In 1845 Isaac & James Barber were listed as making knives. Isaac died in 1854 and James died at the tender age of 40 in 1859. The trademark 'ERA' featured prominently over James Barbers name in the 1850s, and they had began making razors by then. The firm carried on under the directorship of Harriet Barber (widow of James) until the 1870s, then under Mary Ann Barber until her death in 1897. Then another James Barber took over as senior partner. In the 1900s they had the Era Works in Sheffield but in 1928 the trasemark was taken over by Joseph Elliot. It was still listed as a part of Elliots in the 1970s.

So - it could have been WW1.

Regards,
Neil

Neil, you forgot about another owner of this trademark.
Thomas Ellin & Co. used this trademark since 1846 till they were taken over by the Joseph Elliot & Son about 1944.
Thomas Ellin is one of the oldest Sheffield cutlers. They were in business since 1784, located at the Sylvester Works, Arundel Street, Sheffield.



Isaac & James Barber:

Originally Posted by manah

Neil, you forgot about another owner of this trademark.
Thomas Ellin & Co. used this trademark since 1846 till they were taken over by the Joseph Elliot & Son about 1944.
Thomas Ellin is one of the oldest Sheffield cutlers. They were in business since 1784, located at the Sylvester Works, Arundel Street, Sheffield.



Isaac & James Barber:

After the deaths of Thomas Ellin I in 1845 Thomas Ellin II in 1847 his sons were too inexperienced to manage the company, so Joseph Ellin and George Barber took over as the management with Geo. Barber living in the Sylvester Works. In the 1851 census Geo. Barber is listed as master of the firm, but he died in 1872 and A R Ellin took control. Geo. Barbers son, Joseph Ingall Barber, took the role of travelling salesman for the company, but he sadly died at the age of 32 in 1874. Fred Barber, Geos. youngest son, cultivated the Canadian market. After the death of his wife Hannah, Fred Barber married again while on a trip to Toronto but he discovered his wife was bigamously married to someone else and he shot himself in 1888 at Niagara Falls. A R Ellin, made a Master Cutler in 1901, died in 1908. The last Ellin - Arthur - took over the firm, but retired in 1934, after which Joseph Elliot bought the trademarks.

This shows that Ellin and James Barber were totally unconnected - the only connection is that both their marks were bought by Joseph Elliot and retained for Elliots use. So - as in the earlier 'Wolf' controversy - we have another firm using an earlier firms trademarks - Joseph Elliot procured the ERA mark, the I & J Barber mark, the CUTTER mark, the VULCAN mark as well as many others. Ascribing trademarks to the wrong people is a mistake frequently made by certain references available who fail to mention that the marks were sold on, either to widen trade for the new owner (many people put their faith in a brand) or simply to limit competition. It's an easy mistake to make and the fragmentary documentation available doesn't help much to address it!

Regards,
Neil

Thank you very much, Neil and Manah! I do at least feel confident that this is the same James Barber.

Do either of you have an opinion on whether the lack of ERA makes this razor younger or older?

Directly comparing it to the two razors I have from 1810-1830, it is more similar than I'd initially thought in terms of tail-length and tang size. It *does* weigh less, but I get the feeling this thing was reground when these scales were put on it. Specifically, I think the blade was reduced.

As for RFA vs RPA, that's a really tough call. The letters are not stamped from a die of any kind, I think they were burned in free-hand. I can make myself believe it's either RFA or RPA, but the P seems marginally more likely. There's a defined dot where the loop was closed to make the upper form of the letter.

Alas, the seller has no info on it.

Maybe it is RPA, but if the soldier's service number is on the scales it seems like overkill to put his initials on them too.

The reason I thought it might be RFA is because I have seen similar razors with regimental markings - I suppose if you found the razor in a mixed camp, rather than asking for the soldier by serial number you would just hand it over to someone in the same regiment, and let them figure out whose it was - different brigades and divisions fought side by side at the front.

The Royal Regiment of Artillery (RA) was formed in 1722, the Royal Horse Artillery (RHA) in 1793, and in 1899 the RHA was split into three parts: the Royal Field Artillery (RFA), the Royal Garrison Artillery (RGA) and the remaining RHA, So, the earliest year those scales could be from - if indeed it is RFA - is 1899.

My dad was a Gunner in the Royal Artillery, by the way.

Regards,
Neil

British razor request letter.

I have this one in my rotation.

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

Maybe it is RPA, but if the soldier's service number is on the scales it seems like overkill to put his initials on them too.

The reason I thought it might be RFA is because I have seen similar razors with regimental markings - I suppose if you found the razor in a mixed camp, rather than asking for the soldier by serial number you would just hand it over to someone in the same regiment, and let them figure out whose it was - different brigades and divisions fought side by side at the front.

Here's my WW1 Cockhill

The Royal Regiment of Artillery (RA) was formed in 1722, the Royal Horse Artillery (RHA) in 1793, and in 1899 the RHA was split into three parts: the Royal Field Artillery (RFA), the Royal Garrison Artillery (RGA) and the remaining RHA, So, the earliest year those scales could be from - if indeed it is RFA - is 1899.

My dad was a Gunner in the Royal Artillery, by the way.

Regards,
Neil

Here is my WW1 Cockhill, does anyone know what the "RE" stands for at the end? Also any idea about a manufacture date for a Cockhill? Thank you.