Thread: The Truth About The Barber's Notch

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

Well pardon me all over the place - guilty as charged, I'm sure.

No charge involved. I was merely pointing out that if a person was looking for a progression from round point, to hollow point, to square point you'd need to know the years. No offense intended.

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

Or, as previously stated, pure decoration. Personal identification? Hardly. Apart from the three in the pic I have another partial set and a full seven day set, all alike. Scipio has seen them as well. I can't see the owner as someone who had three JR 7-day sets and marked them all the same, nor can I see a particular grinder for JR doing it, unless he didn't want to get paid or work there any more.

Regards,
Neil

I doubt the little notches are for identification, particularly if there are as many of them as you report (I don't know. I hadn't seen any until you posted your pictures). But I'll leave the door open for someone somewhere to mark some of their blades in that fashion. I've seen people do a lot of weird things over the years to mark ownership of items; particularly in instances where a pen mark will not suffice. (Or where an individual is illiterate).

I fall back to the tootsie pop...the world may never know.

I know one thing, having worked in factories briefly in my younger days ..... productivity is , and always has been paramount. Some forty years ago I worked for "piece work" in factories in Massachusetts and there is no doubt in my mind that those grinders in Sheffield did the same. IOW, at the end of the week you got paid according to the number of pieces you produced. There was no hourly wage. Say that to say, if there was no purpose in the notch, it wouldn't have been there.

Originally Posted by Jimbo

OK, here are other theories I have been investigating: balance, alien razor mutilations, boredom, fashion, aerodynamics, marketing, love razors.

The most interesting of these to me so far has been love razors. The matching piece taken from the barber's notch (or B-N as we in this area like to call it) is given to one's beloved, who hangs it around her neck as a symbol of ownership, like a yoke if you will. When the two pieces were reunited, the entire razor was said to be imbued with a mystical power, a little like how the Power Rangers can join up to make a more powerful defender of all that is right. There is anecdotal evidence that the Chronik is one such razor, but this cannot be confirmed as yet.

James.

This is a fascinating speculation, and opens up a whole new line of inquiry: Is it mushroom-hunting season Down Under, and are you using a good field guide?

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I know one thing, having worked in factories briefly in my younger days ..... productivity is , and always has been paramount. Some forty years ago I worked for "piece work" in factories in Massachusetts and there is no doubt in my mind that those grinders in Sheffield did the same. IOW, at the end of the week you got paid according to the number of pieces you produced. There was no hourly wage. Say that to say, if there was no purpose in the notch, it wouldn't have been there.

Can we attract some attention to this from readers of The Forge threads? Maybe the guys who are making blades today can make some sense of it.

Originally Posted by BigJim

No charge involved. I was merely pointing out that if a person was looking for a progression from round point, to hollow point, to square point you'd need to know the years. No offense intended.

Offended? - at being compared to a two year old - perish the thought!

Seriously, the pictures were just to show various types of concavity, not a time-line, which could roughly be figured out by my list of makers names if anyone wanted.

As for an actual time-line being informative, I agree - but informative in a very limited and quite unhelpful way. Some of the makers listed span many decades, so ascribing an actual date to a particular razor would be a guesstimate at best. We also have a maker like Rodgers going from hollow/dreadnought/Sheffield notch/round/Sheffield notch at various stages throughout their history, so the Sheffield notch (aka barbers notch) would appear, disappear and reappear, thus giving no hint at a time-related progression.

"Sheffield notch" was the original term used in Sheffield and goes back a very long way. That kind of rules out it being a special feature to aid barbers for me.

Those vestigial notches in the three JR razors appear at the half way width of full hollow ground razors - quite a thin, brittle, hazardous place to attempt a DIY notch, in my opinion. Most DIY ID marks I have seen have been confined to scales. The same hazards would also apply to the notch being used to hold the blade after it had been heat treated/tempered - a thin brittle area like that argues against it being used in that way.

I agree that we may never know. Even if there was once a good reason for it, it seems to have become lost to us, and later instances of it tend to indicate it as being just another style or fashion.

Regards,
Neil

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

Offended? - at being compared to a two year old - perish the thought!

My apologies if it came across as comparing YOU to a two year old. Never in any way my intention! My intent was to warn against drawing inappropriate conclusions. Your picture serves as a sample of various blade points.

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

the pictures were just to show various types of concavity, not a time-line

That's a needed piece of information. It is not, however, a conclusive piece of evidence on the progression of the notch point. That was the point I was attempting to bring to light...that seeing the different styles side by side did not also suggest a progression. The example being: My two year old son can group shapes together in a progressive order, but that does not mean that the numbers or letters printed on them are in sequential order.

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

We also have a maker like Rodgers going from hollow/dreadnought/Sheffield notch/round/Sheffield notch at various stages throughout their history, so the Sheffield notch (aka barbers notch) would appear, disappear and reappear, thus giving no hint at a time-related progression.

This is an interesting point, and would perhaps give us even more information IF (and that's a BIG if) we could possibly date razors to within a decade or less. If theoretically we could date Rodger's razors in such a fashion as to see when Sheffield Notch points were produced, vs. when they fell out of production, we could compare that timeline to world history and possibly draw some worthwhile conclusions. If for instance, the production of Notch Point razors were to align with periods following significant wars for Britain, or the export destinations of Rodger's razors, that might suggest the amputee theory has merit. Of course, it might not line up or make sense at all; and dating razors to that degree of specificity is quite difficult.

The reason may simply be lost to history.

Peace,
Jim

Peace to you to, Jim! It's an interesting debate, and one in which I am happy to take part. I have asked various people with strong affinities to Sheffield and razor-making, but they have no idea either. What would help is a comprehensive catalogue of, say, Rogers razors for each decade. I know that they are available, but even a four page pamphlet costs quite a sum.

I tend to agree with your conclusion.

All the Best,
Neil

Not to confuse the issue, but one of my favorite razors is a Wm Gilchrist faux frameback and it has a double notch. Any ideas on this one.

Sorry, but I can't get a picture to post.

Not to go too off topic but I just want to say how much I appreciated the rapprochement between Neil and Jim. Obviously both are gentlemen and scholars and fine examples of why I love this place.

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

What would help is a comprehensive catalogue of, say, Rogers razors for each decade. I know that they are available, but even a four page pamphlet costs quite a sum.

From manah's website, a PDF catalog and history of Joseph Rodgers & Sons here . I haven't looked at it in awhile, and don't know that it will shed any light on the debate, but Neil's post brought it to mind.