Thread: Revisiting Steel

I am not as good a metallurgist as my dad or some of the other knifemakers out there.
This debate goes on unending in the custom knife market between the forgers and the stock removal guys.

I am sure that a very nice razor could be made of some of the higher test stainless allows. But they may take longer to sharpen. I don't see them as more difficult just slower.

O1 and 1095 both have very nice fine grain that will give a very nice sharp edge If heat treated properly. Both are less complicated to heat treat than most stainless. Both make a very nice blade for anything that needs to cut. The drawback is they obviously will rust.

The alloy of stainless makes a difference too. I have had several knives made of 440C and I'm not impressed with it as a blade steel. On the other hand my dad made a drop point hunter for himself out of ATS-34. One year he dressed 6 deer at camp. This included opening the body cavity, removing all the innards and cutting through the sternum (he used a hatchet for the pelvic bone). When finished he ran the blade down his arm and it still took hair off his arm. I know, taking hair off the arm is not really shaving but the edge holding ability of that blade was impressive. There are more high tech stainless steels that have come out over the last few years that will outperform the old ATS-34 as far as edge holding ability. Blades with very good edge holding abilities can be made from stainless alloys.

What I can't tell you is how the grain structure compares to the carbon steels. I suspect the carbon steels will take a finer edge due to the grain of the steel but I can't swear to that for sure.

I beleive Gssixgun is correct. The only way to tell for sure is to actually compare each alloy (with proper heat treat for that alloy) side by side and see what happens. Anecdotal comparisons from old men's memories is far from a scientific comparison and theoretical comparisons are just that ... theory.

Ray

I am familiar with the high end kitchen knives you mention - wouldn't it logically follow that these knives are made from carbon steel because they perform better than the stainless ones, and that a professional or heavy-duty hobbyist will trade off the added maintenance for the added performance?

On a recent thread, a question was posed asking about the differences (if any) between the performance of carbon steel blades and stainless steel blades. Within that thread was a general concensus that there is essentially no difference in the performance of carbon steel razors vs. that of stainless steel ones.

I fell you might have misunderstood the consensus, there is a difference between the two kinds of metals but in the end both will get your face smooth. I own booth and my carbon steel as you guessed does not stay as sharp as long maybe a few months where my SS can last for 5-6 months between touchups. Both are very nice shavers but the carbon is quicker to hone/dull where the SS takes longer for both. My carbon also shows patina quicker under the same drying/care than my SS does, YMMV but this is what I have seen hands on.

To swimlikehell-
What I understood from the original thread was that those that responded were pretty much in agreement that there is no noticable difference in the way a blade shaves regardless of the type of steel (assuming good steel, carbon or stainless). The other differences (honing speed/difficulty) was, I agree, clearly stated. I was just supprised at the comments of blade performance based upon my prior, and definitly limited, knowledge about steel. Whether that knowledge is sound or flawed, well, that's the purpose of my original post!

thanks again to all that have replied - and to those who will!

This is a good thread! I've worked as a Tool and Die Maker for many years. The last ten years I spent on the bench I worked for a company that needed to use stainless steels for a majority of their dies and cutting tools due the the rust sensitizing the their product. This company had a large metallurgy department that I worked closely with. As a general statement I can say that, for 440c SS, which was the best stainless tool steel available at the time, carbon steels like D2, A2 and the CPM materials were able to obtain a higher hardness than the heat treated stainless metals but the stainless was a lot tougher to machine in both cutting (mills, lathes, drills and taps) as well as grinding which roughly relates to honing.

How does stainless compare to high carbon steels and 1095? Well it depends on the working of the metal in making the razor. Proper forging, proper heat treatment and tempering as well as cryogenic treatments effect and possibly refine the grain structure of the metal. The finer the grain structure the smoother the shave. CPM metals have raised the bar a lot on grain structure allowing for finer grain structure and more evenly dispersed carbon in the finished metals, stainless steels included. The knife industry is currently using many so called 'super' stainless steels made with the CPM process and new combinations of elements. Another factor that effects the smoothness of the razor's shave is the hones used and the honing technique and probably what the honer had for breakfast. There is always a tolerance zone for any work performed and the term 'shave ready' has many sub levels. Lastly, unless you are getting a custom made razor where you can request a specific metal be used, and especially with vintage blades, there is really no way you can be sure which metal was used or how well the forging and heat treatment process were performed, exactly how hard the metal is or if the edge can be any better than it is currently honed. From what our members here on SRP have said over the years is that both metals give a good shave. The only way to tell for sure is to use both types of razors and use them through several honing processes by different people and report back to us on your findings. Good luck.