What is the significance of the different markings applied to T-I razors? I am referring to the "Loup et Bellier", "Bijou de France", "Eagle" etc. trademarks. Any functional differences? I did a search, but have not found much info. Thanks
Bill
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What is the significance of the different markings applied to T-I razors? I am referring to the "Loup et Bellier", "Bijou de France", "Eagle" etc. trademarks. Any functional differences? I did a search, but have not found much info. Thanks
Bill
I don't know if these designations mean anything. I do know that Eagle was a brand they created for one particular vendor. From my experience, the premium razors seem to be the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sadataki
I evaluate the Tis by two standards, the metal and the grind. Their best razors (other than the special models) seem to be the silver steel and their fanciest models all seem to be full hollow. I believe that only the silver steel razors are lead hardened, which makes the blades superb.
Joe,
What's lead hardened?
The blade is tempered or hardened by putting it in molten lead, which seems to be the ideal way to harder. TI is the only one that does it because it's illegal in most countries, including France (TI seems to have a special dispensation).Quote:
Originally Posted by Kees
Most of that is marketing hype, as DOVO also uses molten lead to temper their razors too...Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lerch
Nenad
Thanks. I just ordered a T-I to rotate with my Feather and was curious about the markings on the blade.
I can see that this isn't going to stop anytime soon.
Most of the markings as joe said, such as Eagle, are used for different vendors so not two vendors in the same sales are (USA) will have the same production razors. On special editions...damascus, etc....they will often use different handle materials so each dealer has something unique.
The more specialized names come from a list of trade names TI has used in the past and will often resurect them for a new dealer.
I wn 14 TI razors now from the least expensive to the most and love them all. Actually with the exception of a few very old meat choppers and one Filarmonica they are the only brand I own and use right now.
Tony
I don't think that's right. If you have some information that uses Dovo lead hardening, please identify it.Quote:
Originally Posted by superfly
I believe they were doing it in the video of their production process but I'm not 100% sure as it was in German lol.
Why you don't think that's right? Just because DOVO didn't said so before? Check this discussion:Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lerch
http://straightrazorpalace.com/showt...ght=DOVO+video
And also the DOVO video:
http://www.kabeleins.de/doku_reporta...artikel/01500/
Click on "Schnell: DSL/LAN (min. 600kBit/s)" and then "> Speichern und zum Video"
In time mark 2:55 you can see the lead tempering process, while the narator talks about "the razors being covered with graphite, and then immersed in bath of molten lead. The graphite prevents the lead to be stuck to the metal. The bath temperature is more than 850 Centigrade."
cheers,
Nenad
Thanks Nenad. I never saw that before. As rough as my German is now, I can tell you're right.:o
The reason I thought it wouldn't be done is because it's quite toxic and bad for the environment. The Germans are very tough about those kinds of things. The French, on the other hand ....
Thanks. It was very interesting.
You're welcome...Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lerch
My German is rusty too, but I recognized the word "blei" (lead) from the sticker at the gas station (bleifrei=unleaded). I than payed more attention :)
cheers,
Nenad
Hm.
But now I'm here scratching my head (not my ass this time...although I often get the two confused - as do others).
"Both Dovo and TI lead harden their razors....."
So then, what can accound for the difference in razors? I own many TI's, across the spectrum of cost, as well as a good number of Dovo's. I have never been able to get my Dovo's to the level of shaving comfort as my TI's. I always figured it had to do something with the temper process that TI uses.
Hm.
C utz
Uhmmmm Chris, could you elaborate on this as I'm getting VERY confused :thinking:Quote:
Originally Posted by C utz
I think perhaps you've never gotten the sharpness of your Dovo's equal to your TI's?
TI's use Sheffield steel. Do we think that might have something to do with it?
X
In ads that I've seen concerning Dovo they have always said the Fire and Ice method of hardening which is not lead hardened. TI gets a special permit from the french Govt to the the process only 1x a year and thats it. I agree with Joe. I can't see the German Govt allowing it. I would think they would say it in their advertising if they used it. I don't know, I have my doubts.
LOL!Quote:
Originally Posted by FiReSTaRT
I fixed it. Yep, I wrote that genius statement when I woke up :)
Thanks Chris. For a second there I thought I was losing my hold on reality :D
My experience as well, but I have to limit it to the premium TIs (what they call silver steel), and I, too, always thought it had to do with the way they hardened the razors.Quote:
Originally Posted by C utz
My guess is it's a lot more complicated than that. TI must have a lot of trade screts that make their razors superior.
Oh, great...
Now I have to start thinking about getting a TI...
Make sure that you pay attention to the markings on the blade....they mean that Dovo uses lead...or something like that:)Quote:
Originally Posted by izlat
YOu could kill two birds with one stone by getting the SRP razor.Quote:
Originally Posted by izlat
True, true
But I have to sell something first (or exchange it)
How about your first born?Quote:
Originally Posted by izlat
I take it you missed our exchange on that topic with Ilija (he deleted his post) :roflmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lerch
Nah, I was thinking more along the lines of a couple of brushes and razors I am not interested in keeping...
Cheers
Ivo
The principal advantage of using molten lead is to reduce the amount of carbon that is lost during heat treating a piece of steel. One of the books I have on hardening steel stated that mercury would be better but it was to expe3nsive.
Hope this helps,:)
I noticed a post in the venders section which has a blurb directly from Dovo about their manufacturing process and according to them they heat the metal to 1300 degrees (C I assume) and then use a special oil to chill the metal. Sorry but no lead hardening there.
I haven't reaaad it, but this lead isn't used for cooling. I think it's used for tempering. Based on what you say, the video seems to insert the lead step between the heating and cooling.Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigspendur
I think the heating is done IN the lead...
Nenad
That's too low a temperature. Notice they heat it to 1300. Molton lead is only 850. I think they leave it at that lower temperature to change state slowly and harden.Quote:
Originally Posted by superfly
Joe,
Although it melts at 850 deg. it can still be heated much higher than that. We use aluminum here for castings and although it melts at 1200 deg or so it can easily go far beyond that.
Tony
I love it when these threads take a turn into the realm of hard science of chemistry and physics. Whod'a thunk shaving could be so technical.
X
My point was that it's not heating the steel. It's hardening it. In the video you can see an earlier heating step where the steel gets real hot. Then it goes into the lead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Miller
So how exactly does this process work? Does it realign the structure of the metal?
The lead is used to heat the steel, and as Randy said, it's purpose is to keep as much carbon as possible in it. In the video, the early stages of heating and making blade blanks from the blades is called hot forging, which is, in contrast to stamping, superior method of making blade blanks, because the steel structure gets altered in a way that improves edge holding and longevity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lerch
After the blanks are formed, the blades are dipped in graphite oil, to prevent lead to stick to the blades, as mentioned before, and after that the blades are quenched in oil.
The video is showing cool blades dipped in graphite, and put in molten lead bath, which, as Tony mentioned, reach higher temperatures than 850C, which is the temperature the speaker mentioned as the "starting temperature"...
Nenad
But what exactly does the tempering process do to the steel? How does it make it harder?
http://www.anvilfire.com/FAQs/heat_faq_index.htmQuote:
Originally Posted by FiReSTaRT
Thanks. I'm looking into it.
Joe,Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lerch
In normal forging of blades the steel will be heated many times as it is shaped but it may not be at the initial solution temperature needed to start the real tempering process. Those first steps in the video look to me like othing more than the shaping and forging steps. I think the blade is then brought to the initial heat treating temperature in the lead bath as it provides a more stable atmosphere over heating in air. After the lead step the blade is likely quenched where it will have it's ultimate hardness. The temper is then drawn by heating to a lower temperature to add a little ductility to the steel which would otherwise be brittle.
I am sure Joe or Bill or Randy could chome in here with better details but this is it in a nutshell. Oddly though aluminum reacts exactly the opposite of steel. The freshly cast aluminum we make is soft. We solution heat treat it at 1000 deg for 12 hours, quench it in 180 deg water and it is dead soft and can be straightened (steel would now be at it's hardest). We then "artificially age" it in a 335 deg heated air oven for 3 hours after which it is harder and stronger, reaching it ultimate properties (on steel this would draw the temper and make it softer).
Tony