Thread: "honed" razor still failed HHT-3?

Originally Posted by Jimbo

It reads to me like you are meant to aim for the higher numbers under this parametrisation. I've only ever seen it on the logarithmic scale previously which is why I was confused.

James.

Got it! going back a re-reading it it makes more sense taking the numbers away...ie~ i concede a successful HHT (when i have used it) at what would be a HHT-5 on the above scale but just never knew the numbers and would consider anything else not passing

Just to reiterate what's already been said above:

1) The HHT is almost meaningless until you've calibrated it with a number of blades at different levels of sharpness and YOUR hair.

2) A shave test is only slightly more meaningful, with its value increasing the longer you've been using a straight.

That said, I have bought razors from eBay, from members of other forums, and from members of this forum -- most of which were claimed to be "shave ready". So far about 10% were ready to go right into my rotation.

So... you have a couple of options. Either buy hones, gather all the information you can, and slowly improve your edges until you're happy with the results, or buy a razor from / get a razor sharpened by someone with a solid reputation. Or both, which is probably the most effective route.

Wow, l guess it was only a matter of time before someone over thought the HHT and tried to turn it into a science. It all sounds silly to me. The only real test that matters is the shave test so why not just get 'er done? Just because a razor can cut a hair hanging from your fingers, after being properly preped and pointing in the right direction, doesn't mean that the edge is in that condition for it's entire length! I guess if we over think it we can have a pile of hairs properly prepped and ready and try the test every .0015" to check the entire edge. My point is that an edge may start with a slight wave or worse especially a vintage razor that's been kicking around who knows where. Smiling and wedge razors are another example where the edge sharpness may vary over it's length. Change the hair and it's a whole new game. Sorry but this 'science' don't hunt for me. Silly is the best way I can describe it IMHO.

I agree with some of what is said above.

The HHT is very useful if you know what your looking for
to know what your looking for takes time and trial and error.
if your not comfortable with all other aspects of shaving, honing and stropping, the HHT will almost definitely be completely unreliable.
I believe the HHT is useful for natural stones because of the softer edges that they produce, cutting a hanging hair implies a finer edge as opposed to a serrated edge
a 1k synthetic will easily catch and pop a hanging hair but it will feel very violent. a perfect HHT result is one that once the razor touches the hair, the hair silently falls once cut with the edge.
a HHT 3 for me is a smooth catch and pop, nothing like a 1k catch and pop. it feels very much different.
cutting finer hairs is more difficult but your more likely to get a silent falling of the hair.
a thick hair is easier to cut and gives much more feedback, a catch and pop and a hair silently falling in my mind can have 7 or 8 degrees of separation. so a silent falling of the hair for me is probably a HHT10 or something.
Its not a necessity to stick to the rules made by one person. There are no HHT police
Adopt and adapt, everyone is different and everyone is looking for something different from there shaves.

So as you can see its a skill to interpret and your not forced to use it and there are diffrent shave markers you can use.
and they are MARKERS not shave ready tests, that can only be done by shaving, they are only indicators of a good shave, not a guarantee.

I use alot of markers for bevel setting, and after that I don't use that many if any anymore, but when your at the start of your honing journey your better probing and trying all the tests so you can find the range which defines a good edge in your own mind and with your own technique.

Its strange I don't see the TPT getting slammed for being unreliable. I can have a nice grippy edge at bevel stages and it won't cut arm hair or I can cut armhair and have a smooth TPT, but no one mentions this as a flaw in the test do they?

But I still use it as I feel combining both and getting ood results from both means I have a good bevel set, but I only use a coticule these days, the TPT may well have been designed with a synthetic stone in mind, making it unreliable for other stones... adopt and adapt, I believe standardization will never be possible as there are too many variables and choice of honing methods to standardize for every progression and method.

This may be the biggest reason why so many people give up str8 razor shaving and honing. They try the standardized methods, they don't work and they believe there is no other way and no hope.

You may have noticed that when someone asks for help in a thread you'll have alot of experienced honers asking for more information on what progression your using or setup you have. Some stone have very specific characteristics as well as razors having hard steel, soft steel, then vendors differing standards/methods in honing, then customers differing beard types; soft/whispy to steel wool. then experienced with a razor to amateur shaving technique, lathering technique, some soaps being better than others, what water are you using? hard soft, mineral saturated or from a natural loch? They could ask all these questions, but they don't because your problem should be resolved as quickly and within a beginners understanding of they're current abilities.

sorry if this seems like a stream of consciousness, but I've read over it and it seems sort of coherent so, enjoy

regards Alex

I have had a razor pass the HHT but not shave comfortably. With my face the only true test of sharpness is the first downstroke on me cheek. If it's not comfortable, I go back to the appropriate stone.

Originally Posted by Mastershake

I have had a razor pass the HHT but not shave comfortably. With my face the only true test of sharpness is the first downstroke on me cheek. If it's not comfortable, I go back to the appropriate stone.

I'm with Mastershake on this one. Granted, I'm only a beginner in terms of honing, and my shavings skills are intermediate, but I know after 2 or 3 strokes down my cheek if the razor is sharp enough. If it's not I know I either stropped poorly or I need to sharpen it. First, your technique needs to improve to the point that you know when the razor is cutting well and when it's not. Until then any other test won't make much sense.

Wow a ton of thoughts, again


How about the simple one

HHT is used by the person Honing the razor if they so choose, it means nothing to the shaver

Originally Posted by Jimbo

It reads to me like you are meant to aim for the higher numbers under this parametrisation. I've only ever seen it on the logarithmic scale previously which is why I was confused. James.

It *is* on the logarithmic scale. Each number represents a HHT-ability thrice that of the previous number ergo HHT-5 is actually 81 times as capable of HHT-ing as HHT-1. HHT-6 has only been achieved once in an orbiting laboratory by a self-certifiable honemaestronaut

Sorry i have always considerd the hht test silly. i've had perfectly honed razors that have always failed it yet were extremely smooth and comfortable shavers. Some that will pass what you might call the hht-4 that have been harsh on the face, some have been wonderful. these blades have been honed by me and/or several well known honemiesters/ razor makers.

since i only shave my face (mowing the arm does not count) i really only care about the shave. if non-shaving tests are important to you then test away but in the end it only matters how the razor shaves.

naturally YMMV as well as your opinion

I achieved HHT-8 last week in the LHC - paper to follow.

No, I agree with Glen - keep it simple. There's no need for all this fancy-schmancy popinjay nonsense about arbitrary gradations of arbitrary hairs licked between fingers (ewww, by the way...) touched to edges in the pale moonlight. Do it if you want to, but don't pretend it is anything but what it is - a very poor shave proxy with the potential for a reasonable level of intra-rater reliability over time, but little else.

Someone also mentioned that the "shave test" is a poor test of how well a razor shaves.....I think I know what you mean, but given the ultimate goal of sharpening a razor is to shave with it, it kinda doesn't make a lot of sense to say "shaving is a poor test of whether something shaves" . The addition of "until a user gains experience" I think gives the key to what was actually meant: inexperienced straight razor users will often think the edge is not sharp enough, not because it is not sharp enough but because of a variety of other factors such as technique, poor stropping etc. I think rather than lumping the shave test in with the HHT as being only marginally better is misleading. The shave test is in fact in my mind the gold standard for testing whether an edge is shave-worthy, by definition. No, perhaps we could say that until you get some experience at shaving and using the associated paraphernalia of straight razors your inexperience can mislead you as to the shave-readiness of an edge, and that if you are in any way unsure there are enough people around nowadays that you could most likely get some first hand advice from an experienced user somewhere in your vicinity.

James.