Thread: Anyone familiar with "P (heart image) Ford razors?

Originally Posted by JoeBass

Hmm..so it looks like the p or q or b, as well as the heart, had no relation to the maker's actual name. How odd. I wonder if there's anyone still living that would remember the reasons for the specific symbols, or if they were perhaps just chosen randomly as a sort of design trademark...

I feel that every nuance of maker's marks on all olde English products have great significance in this time period. There is much information avaliable in our age of information, however much is lost. I am grateful to Neil for doing fine research at the drop of a hat and keeping this info circulating. He has great local resources and uses them most proficiently! The answer is surely out there. Stimulating the search will eventually yield the answer! I suppose this is what we are doing here!

Taking a SWAG here, could it possibly be P Hartford?

I can't find any razor makers by that name on google.

Well main at all I´m greeting to come into this place, I come frome Spain and my english is not too good but I spect you´ll be patients. but my little knowledge the P (heart) FORD is a very comun mark in straith razors in spain with a particular carey handle, an kind of handle with a Imperium decoration, but this razors crosses a lot of dates, the older I have is ones with the metal finishes withs brass flowers quite commun in XVIIIth century razors, another are crearly of the begining of the XIXth century and finaly at the end of this century and probably in the begining of the next. I´m agree with you wen signal the P lik a local mark and the heart and name too; the name of the maker provably was unknown, like waith razors or anonimus razors, I´m, of course, not sure wath place is into the mark but the temporal distance into the olders and the nearest is too beeg to think in the same family or the same maker, only an idea, wen I learn how must I could post Photos I´ll show you my P FORD razors, thanks for acept me into your place and complains for may english

Welcome to SRP Robert. Your English is much better than my Spanish! Thank you for your contribution to this thread.

Yes, Robert . pictures of your razors would be very interesting to see.
Tom

It is not an unknown maker (see post #3).

The mark is clearly ascribed to Jonathan Pitchford in the Cutlers Guild of Sheffield directory of corporate marks.

It then passed on along the family of Pitchford: J Pitchford / J J Pitchford / J Pitchford / J & W Pitchford - that little lineage spans (at least) from 1782 to 1905, probably longer.

The same name, the same family, but quite obviously not the same maker. Not unless he was related to Methuselah.

What happened to the mark after it was no longer in use by the Pitchford family is open to conjecture, as is the question whether it existed or not before it was noted as the property of the original Jonathan Pitchford. He either created the mark, or bought an existing mark. It may have been in his family before he recorded it as his own in the Register - family names do not spring out of thin air, after all, they have a habit of going back to time immemorial.

Makers marks (aka Corporate Marks) like other property have a value, not only intrinsic but also intangible. On acquiring the mark of another maker one supposes that the new owner trades beneficially on the goodwill engendered by previous sales of the old makers product and it therefore has an 'intangible' value - a value that is hard to apportion in terms of money. The practice goes on all the time now, and it went on all the time then.

In short, I can't see why this continues to be a mystery, when it is evidently well documented.

Regards,
Neil

Thanks Neil, and into this long cours of blade makers, are there any diference you saw into the mark comunkly knowledge?, could we take the diferences into the form of the blades and the form of tne handle a indicative normative to see a date or another, or only they be a diferent conformation of firent europe places, I habe a beeg doubdt about the simple normative to date a razor, straigth handle, more rect and straith blade etc. werr thanks for yous aportation and I take this moment to ask you, more informated than me, about the brass flower that cover some of the perns into the handle, like a decorative motive. Wat think about them, indicate it a particular datation?, thanks again, and very interesting and documented text

Thanks Robert.

I have only had three examples, but the mark was more or less the same. Here are pictures of two of them:



Apparently the family came from Upper Hallam and were farmers with a leaning towards metalwork. The first Jonathan Pitchford recorded as a razor maker was granted the corporate mark in 1760. The works were first in Stannington, then Sandygate, then Eldon Street (1841) then Shude Lane (1907).

Joseph Pitchford and George Stanley Pitchford were the last recorded partners, George still being listed as a razor maufacturer at his home address in 1945, at which time the business in Shude Lane had shut down. So the lineage is even longer now!

While in Eldon Street John Pitchford and Jonatahan Pitchford were partners until 1852, followed by John Pitchford and William Pitchford until 1856 and it was during this period that the firms razors were traded by Sheffield and Birmingham agents and found their way over to Europe, where they were held in high esteem.

I agree with you that taking certain aspects of a razors appearance as a guide to date is not very precise, as fads come and go as they do today, but as a broad indication they do help. As for the bullseye washers or 'rosettes' that surround the pin, the actual type has to be taken into consideration, and even then the plainer types span quite a long period of time. In general the very wide, plain washers, domed in appearance and usually made of iron that are found on early razors - especially continental razors, being nearly as wide as the scales (particularly at the wedge end) are of very early date, c1750-70, although they are found in later razors too and simpler, smaller washers are also used on razors contemporary with the wide-washered razors, so this detail in isolation cannot be relied on.

Another type is the large bullseye washer, sometimes of iron, sometimes made of a brass/latten alloy. with concentric rings along the outer part before rising to a shallow dome in the middle seem to arise around the 1800s, although there are, of course, overlaps in styles once again which makes the actual date uncertain. Around the same sort of time we find the type that look like they have flower petal on them - the well-defined shapes seem to be the early part of the 1800s mainly, but the wider, less well-defined ones are probably earlier.

The very large decorative types seem to give way to the simpler, but still quite wide 'bullseye' washer, again sometimes of iron composition (earlier) and sometimes of brass/latten alloy (later). All types, including the earlier decorative ones, have smaller domed washers underneath them.

A lot of early types did not even have a washer/pin arrangement at the wedge, but relied on a pommel design. These are usually high-end razors and the material used to make the pommel was very often silver.

Using washer design on its own as a method of dating is highly speculative in my opinion, although taken together with other information, like the Pitchford makers, they would indicate whether it was an earlier or later maker, and if the different makers time periods are known I suppose it could be quite reliable.

Regards,
Neil

marvellous manah, do you know the date of this list?, well Neil, with my smalll english, I think I can understand all you say, or fairly all, I´m agree that the form of razors is a dangerous sistem to date them, here in Spain is usefull that P-Ford razors uses ever the same handle, withe the same decoration, I haved no time to fotograf my own razors, I have 3 of them, but I recently I buyed one that I think is too of that makers, I did´t recive it at the moment but I can show you the photo of the sellers web page



they are not very good photos and the razos isn´t restaured but I guess you can see ones better in a few days, but Im sure you can see the rosette in the pin, and the horn decoration, after I´ll show yo more examples with the handle not straigt and without roseetes but with a similar decoration carved, the mais and the more interesting ting is that this razor seems to be from 1800s beginig ore before, but the blade is for my first see most modern, well is an example. I spect you can, and the res of the forus members, usdestand wee write because I realise my problems with english, but I´m sure that I´m not going to get better sucess with a google traductor, Im not used with the name you aply to the diferents parts os the razors, if you know how can I get a plan with them I´ll be quite greatefull, to get better the comunication.