Thread: Info needed again Please

Hi Folks.
Just got given a couple of razors and am having trouble finding any info on them. Or at least any info that makes any sense.
The first one is a WUG. Yes Dorko I thought, but a quick google tells me that it would be 1980's. BUT I really dont think so.
I will post photos as soon as I get chance.
It has the usual WUG diamond logo on the scales, but nothing on the blade and only WUG on the tang. Absolutely nothing else.
The condition and patina suggests it to be way older than 1980s. AM I missing something here? Did Dorko inherit a trade mark or brand name?
If it really is 1980's then it must have been buried in the earth since the day it was made, judging by the state of it.


The other is Bird & co. Sheffield. Again there is nothing else on the razor. It is a square point almost full wedge and doesnt say England on it, so I presume it to be 19th Century. All I have been able to find on Bird & CO is a 1919 trade mark/hall mark.

As I say I will post pictures asap, but in the meantime... any ideas?

Thanks

Pics of the razors would help

Yeah Sorry about that. Here they are....

Attachment 101670Attachment 101671Attachment 101672Attachment 101673

The Bird & Co. is most likely Edward Bird & Co.

Edward Bird was born in Devon in 1870, but his family moved to Sheffield in 1871. His first job was as a clerk at the Practical Cutlery Co. in Union Street. He then formed a short-lived partnership - Hardy & Bird - producing, among other items, razors. In the 1900s he was involved in another company - Bird & Blake, electro-plate cutlery makers, but this was dissolved in 1904. Edward Bird continued under his own name in - wait for it! - Edward Street! He registered the company of Edward Bird & Co in 1914, but he died overseas in India in 1916 and his company died with him.

Regards,
Neil

Thanks Neil. You are, as always, a fountain of knowledge. So would you guess this is actually a Hardy & Bird, or maybe something he produced before teaming up with Hardy? It has to be before 1892 or so, which would have made him less than 22 years of age.
My own "gut" feeling is that there may be another Bird & Co at some point. I just get the impression that it might be a few years older. Maybe mid to late 19th C rather than very late 19th. It just seems too simplistic in style. Unless of course it was made whilst Edward was learning his trade.
Leather scales too.
Either way I am looking forward to getting it cleaned up and having a go with it.

On the WUG.. I unpinned it last night and started to clean the scales. Definately celluloid.
What I had quickly found on WUG was as follows

"Dorko-Dorten GmbH & Co., Solingen in 1983. Brand names: 'H.H.', 'Hebräische Universität in Jerusalem', 'Modoso-Gold', 'Try Me Sir', 'Turko', 'Wug'. Open-blade razor and safety-razor maker."

But this morning I very quickly found other info on another straight razor forum, which explains that Dorko started in 1920s. Now it all makes sense.

Oh and who provided this new info on this other forum???
Ah yes a bloke called Neil Miller.

Cheers Neil

Neil. I dont suppose you have any info on a
Thomas Bird apprentice to John Wood in 1768. Son of Thomas Bird the Sicklesmith (apprentice to brother John Bird - scissorsmith)
I can only find the names and not much else.
ta!

Dorko, Solingen-Merscheid.

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

his company died with him.

Possibly yes, possibly no.
Or it was another company on Brunswick Works.

It could be that the company that Alex shows the makers mark for are another company entirely - there seem to have been a lot of Birds (not the tweet-tweet variety!) in Sheffield in allied trades all involving metal working of one type or another. They were later in time than Edward Bird though, and I don't think that they are the makers of your razor.

I am happy that the Brunswick Works Bird & Co has nothing to do with Edward Bird, but can find no razors accredited to them, just silver and electroplate canteens of cutlery, table flatware and so on.

As far as I can make out, Edward Bird was never at the Brunswick Works in Union Lane, as a brief chronology shows:

1876 - formation of Practical Cutlery Co, Zebra Works, Union Lane (Walter Birch) - Edward, 7 months old in 1871 would be under 6yrs old
c1884 - Edward employed as clerk in Practical Cutlery Co
post 1884 - works alongside William Hardy at Practical Cutlery Co
post 1884 - partnership formed with William Hardy, t/a Hardy & Bird from Practical Cutlery Co premises
post 1884 - Bird and Hardy become the managers of Practical Cutlery Co in Union Street
1892 - Bird forms partnership with John Blake t/a Bird & Blake in Edward Street
1895 - Hardy & Bird partnership dissolved
1904 - Bird and Blake partnership dissolved
1905 - Bird & Co recorded as trading from Edward Street
1914 - Edward Bird & Co changed to a limited company, trading from Thomas Street
1916 - Edward dies, Edward Bird & Co defunct, Practical Cutlery Co defunct

1919 - The Practical Cutlery Co mark is revived for a short time, but soon disappears again. This time it was trading from premises in Broad Lane and producing edge tools.

The other Bird & Co trading from the Brunswick Works in Eldon Street were not there for long:

1866 - Brookes Bros, makers of engineers edge tools were at the Brunswick Works
1875 - James Rhodes, t/a a bone and shell scale handle cutter was at the Brunswick Works
1879 - John Howe, engineer and machine dealer was at Brunswick Works
1882 - Charles Dawson, table knife maker, was at Brunswick Works
1919 - Bird & Co were at the Brunswick Works
1919 - Morris Jones Rope Co acquire the Brunswick Works

So this other Bird & Co were there some time prior to 1919 and after 1882, but the only reference I can find is dated 1919.

However, I am still reasonably sure that Edward Bird is our man, as the following does actually call his company 'Bird & Co.' - but not at Brunswick Works, Union Street!



Regards,
Neil

Originally Posted by moop

Neil. I dont suppose you have any info on a
Thomas Bird apprentice to John Wood in 1768. Son of Thomas Bird the Sicklesmith (apprentice to brother John Bird - scissorsmith)
I can only find the names and not much else.
ta!

I'm afraid I haven't - yet! Curious where you got the info from - please enlighten!

Not many people know, but scissor-making is a much more complicated art than razor making - you do all the forging, hammering, heat treatment, tempering, grinding, polishing that you would do with a razor, but setting is much more involved - the way the one scissor blade closes over another is an art form, they used adjustable screws then instead of the rivets you see in cheap scissors now, the reason being that an angle of bias had to be incorporated into the blades to make them progressively shut and cut without destroying the edge. Even the handles were hand-worked, using a puch to cut a hole in each blank and then progressively widening it by beating it on the horn of an anvil. If he had an outlet for scissors (and probably shears and other allied edged tools) and was a small maker, then I don't think that he would get into razor-making in a large way.

I wouldn't really describe the razor as basic or crude - it looks quite smart an elegant to me, a product made to suit its function. There were many just like it, extending well into the 20th century. Even those cuir-bouilli (boiled and pressed leather) scales were used for an amazing length of time, not just on pre-1900 razors. You can tell that - comparatively speaking - the razor is not as old as it might first appear by the pinning - see the washers? Very early razors would tend to have horn scales and no tiny washers like that but rather much larger bullseye washers.

Regards,
Neil