Thread: Barrel trade marks from Wigan and Salford

Indeed, Thanks, Ash! To be honest, I never start a thread as this without PM'ing Neil!
They are certainly more fun with him aboard!
As to fun, your response was fun to read and very informative. I know we have a member from Wigan. Got to get him here as well.
Thanks!
Tom

Interesting post for sure, and those razors are beautiful ! i was looking on google and put the address and did the streetview and you can see the same building as your 2nd pic pretty cool stuff! Unfortunately i didnt find any barrel trademark!

Tom - the corporate or trade mark on your razor is most probably that of John Petty & Sons from Sheffield.



John Petty was first a pen blade grinder in Solly Street in 1841, then a grocer in Gargen Street in 1851 then started making blades again at the Perth Works in Garden Street by 1868. He is most noted as a knife and cutlery maker, but he also made razors, some of which were stamped 'magnetic' - he died in 1887 at which time his son John Thomas Petty took over the company. It looks like the son changed the corporate mark in 1888:



So your razor must predate this change of mark.

As far as J.M. Hall goes there are two likely looking suspects! The first is John Matthew Hall, born in Sheffield in 1836 but relocating to Wigan. His occupation is listed as carrier and ironmonger in the 1901 census and his address was 26 Church Street, Wigan.

The other suspect - and the most likely one to my mind - is John Malkin Hall, also born in 1836 in Sheffield, but relocating to Wigan. His occupation was listed as cutler, grinder and ironmonger in the 1881 census and his address was 25 Millgate, Wigan. So at least we know he was a bona-fide cutler, even though in this instance the razors were made by Petty. Millgate is just a short distance from Library Street:



I found a few matches for T. Smith, but nothing worth noting - too tenuous! Like you, I suspect he was either an ironmonger/hardware shop/hairdresser or similar who bought razors from Petty with his name stamped on the tang.

Regards,
Neil

Many Thanks, Neil, This seems to answer the question. Also, It seems to date the razors as pre-1888. I now I wonder about the corporate mark granted 1791?
I suppose it was previously granted to someone else and then aquired by John Petty?
Tom

The marks entered in the ledger held at the Cutlers Guild in Sheffield were often re-let if the last user had died or not renewed them, Tom, or they were sold or acquired by taking over a business, so a certain mark could go back a long way. After John Petty's death, the firm took over W Gregory and Sons (formerly acting as distributors for J Petty & Sons wares) and acquired their corporate marks of a hammer with 'W' and 'G' around it and a saw crossed with an axe:



The takeover of Gregory's was around 1907. All the marks were included on a visiting card:



and you can just make out the original Petty corporate mark on an old coffin-style razor box:



John Petty's mark also appears on a butcher knife stamped 'Bitterling Ltd' - although there is/was a firm of E A Bitterling Ltd, manufacturers of heavy catering equipment for butchers,



it is not clear if this firm is the same as it was registered in 2007. It is also unclear if the mark on this butchers knife pre-dates John Petty's use of it.

You can see from the first pic that Joseph Mills & Co and A. Argyle & Co were also taken over by John Petty & Sons, who obtained their corporate marks too, Mills & Co is the judges head, Argyle & Co is the pig.

Regards,
Neil

Very interesting and enlightening, Neil. Once again. I am in gratitude for your expertise and willingness to share.
Many Thanks,
Tom

Hello Tom. Just thought you'd like to see my latest J.M Hall Wigan razor.

Not as nice as yours I'm afraid, but interesting nonetheless.



The coffin style box is nicer than the razor, appearing to be ebonised papier-mache.

Of more interest, I've recently bought a number of documents belonging to J.M Hall from the late Victorian and early Edwardian period, including one of their invoices:-



No barrel trademark, but I'm happy to add it to my collection of Wigan items

Kind regards,

Andy

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

Tom - the corporate or trade mark on your razor is most probably that of John Petty & Sons from Sheffield.



John Petty was first a pen blade grinder in Solly Street in 1841, then a grocer in Gargen Street in 1851 then started making blades again at the Perth Works in Garden Street by 1868. He is most noted as a knife and cutlery maker, but he also made razors, some of which were stamped 'magnetic' - he died in 1887 at which time his son John Thomas Petty took over the company. It looks like the son changed the corporate mark in 1888:



So your razor must predate this change of mark.

As far as J.M. Hall goes there are two likely looking suspects! The first is John Matthew Hall, born in Sheffield in 1836 but relocating to Wigan. His occupation is listed as carrier and ironmonger in the 1901 census and his address was 26 Church Street, Wigan.

The other suspect - and the most likely one to my mind - is John Malkin Hall, also born in 1836 in Sheffield, but relocating to Wigan. His occupation was listed as cutler, grinder and ironmonger in the 1881 census and his address was 25 Millgate, Wigan. So at least we know he was a bona-fide cutler, even though in this instance the razors were made by Petty. Millgate is just a short distance from Library Street:



I found a few matches for T. Smith, but nothing worth noting - too tenuous! Like you, I suspect he was either an ironmonger/hardware shop/hairdresser or similar who bought razors from Petty with his name stamped on the tang.

Regards,
Neil

Hello again Neil.

I've just been through the J M Hall documents in my collection which were all obtained from the same source and found some interesting information.

As well as the J M Hall invoice for 17 Market Place, Wigan, I have an invoice from Pendlebury & Co which is made out to "J M Hall Church St" and dated 1898, so this would seem to indicate J M Hall is John Matthew Hall:-



Other documents refer to an Elizabeth Hall, including payments to Wigan Council for private works at Eccleston St and Dicconson Terrace for dates up to 1915

However...the 1881 Worrall's Wigan and District Directory refers to John Malkin Hall at 25 Millgate Wigan:-

Worrall's Wigan and District Directory, 1881 :: wiganworld

I think this raises more questions than answers, but interesting none the less.

Kind regards,

Andy

Hello again Tom.

I e-mailed the vendor of the invoice I didn't win and he has kindly given permission for me to upload the image here:-



It is from William Gregory and Sons to J.M Hall and dated 1896.

It's nice that it fits in with what Neil said about the likely origin of the Barrel mark......I just wish I'd won the auction !!

Kind regards,

Andy