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The virginity of Mary was introduced very late in the history of christianity. So it was a retroactive miracle.

The point is to try and understand the pov of the other person, and the reasons for it.
I had a good friend (ex colleague in the Netherlands) who is a very devout catholic.
I've discussed religion...

Ok let's assume for a moment that JC and Moses existed. I have no specific reason to doubt that.

Moses leads his people away, there has been a drought and the river is partially dry. Dry enough to...

Why?
How are e.g. walking on water or a parting sea different from a giant bean stalk?

Btw offtopic from my point, but I have always believed that the 'walking on water' was a misinterpretation...

Sooo....

where did you stick the probes? :w
:roflmao

For some religions the distinction is pretty vague.



Close, but no cigar. Sure, TNG may have more hot looking women, but SW has Leia. And light sabres

Is unrational a real word? I always thought it was either 'ir' or 'un' but not both.:hmmm:



That is exactly what irrational means. For that specific area of debate (Religion), religious people...

That would be a nice conclusion of our discussion. :tu
Motion granted. :)

As asked and conceded, I will not continue this old-testamental diversion because it wasn;t the point of this thread. I don't agree with you, but I am not going to go into it.



No you don't....

Fait enough. Thanks for the fencing, guys. :tu

I know it is supposed to show us the changed the relationship between us.
But before that happened, god was vengeful, and had no qualms killing innocents. Is it fair to punish people who did nothing...

If job was perfect, then they died for the purpose of God making his point.
If he wasn't (and it was a punihsment) they died for his sin.

From the KJB




[/QUOTE]

EDIT: I can't find a reference right now, so I have to retract this statement.
Either I read it and it was a different version of the story, or I was wrong all along. (It's been known to happen)

...

Perhaps, but it didn't make his behavior then any better.



I don't really care if Job had it coming or not.
But did his wife / kids have to be killed for his sin (if there was any)?

The infants I refer to were not specifically mentioned (or at least: it's been a while since I read the bible) but if you rain down 10 plagues (egypt) or level whole cities (sodom and gomorrah) or...

Tsk Tsk.
You forgot the chastity / purity of thought commandment (no 9 on my list). I can name them all them by heart. It's a rhyme I once learned from the old-style catechismus (the book that you...

Deviating from the current line of discussion: how about Old testament vs new testament.
The God of the old testament is the same as the one of the new testament.
Someone here saved me the effort...

No problem. I'll do it for free even. Travelling will be a killer though. :D

Perhaps I should explain that my opinions about institutionalized religion stem from the fact that I was a catholic, though my parents were not strict about it.

There are several fundamental...

I agree 100%.

That may be your idea or mine, but under catholic doctrine, inherited sin is a pretty basic concept that means that if you are not baptized, there is no chance of salvation. Baptism washes away that...

Does that also change the implications of not being baptized in your religion?
Because it does in catholicism (which is the local flavor of christianity where I cam from) and I've always found the...

Which was conveniently written a LONG time ago, and of which the source can never be traced. And even if it could, the first writings were from a long time after his death. Not to mention the...

If He loves us AND is an interventionist, then he sure has some explaining to do.
Because a whole lot of people have died in all sorts of 'interesting' ways without ever having noticed.

Well women can have an opinion. It just doesn't count in many of the institutionalized religions.



Sorry, that wasn't my intention.
My point was that we cannot know one way or the other. It...