I have a question for the guys that use the old "soft steel" razors. Do you have to strop mid-shave? I have found two now that require me to strop between the right side of my face and the left. I was just curious how common that is.
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I have a question for the guys that use the old "soft steel" razors. Do you have to strop mid-shave? I have found two now that require me to strop between the right side of my face and the left. I was just curious how common that is.
I have a few from the late 1700s. Only strop after and before the shave. (4 passes )
Just adore the feel of them on my face. Sooo smooth and gentle.
It's not common as far as I know.
In all my years I have never stopped a razor mid shave.
Pete <:-}
Same as Pete
Before and after
Has anyone ever analyzed one of these razors? I'd be really curious as to their Rockwell hardness and composition.
Typically I only stop before and after as well, which is why this struck me as odd.
How old are you talking? There's a bit of a range.
Regardless, I haven't found that I need to strop during a shave. Perhaps the edges on those need some fine tuning? Or maybe it is in fact due to the steel.
So something like this.
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I would have guessed it to be newer than that.
I have been told that the Shefield steel was softer steel but i've never noticed a difference in how well they hold a edge. Maybe yours lost it's temper some where along it's life.
If it is as old as you think (I don't know, but given the tail, it could be), it would have been reground. That is also quite a bit of wear on the spine. I think I have heard that on the older blades, the heat treatment would have put the edge at the desired hardness, but further up, not necessarily so. As a means of experimentation, if you've ever scraped rust off a blade with a single edge razor, you'll have noticed the top of the spine and the tang and tail are significantly softer than the face of the blade. It could simply be the case that you have gotten the edge to a portion of the razor that will not hold a shaving edge like the original edge would have.
But that's pure speculation.... Personally, I have found when my edges don't shave like they should and the razor is of reputable make, it's usually my fault, not the razor's.
It may very well be ground down past the temper. The grind is not symmetrical at all from side to side and it does have a lot of wear to it. I re-honed it and will give it another try next week. Right now I have another blade that I need to try out first.
As a side note. The other blade that I have to strop mid-shave is one that I made myself as an experiment. I purposefully heat treated it to a softer state (lower Rockwell value) than I typically would. I was curious how it would perform and feel on the face. It performs just like this old one does. So I'm thinking that it's a heat treat issue. Either this old one is simply worn down past the temper, or it was overheated at some point in it's life while being re-ground.
This is all making me think that when we refer to the old "soft steel" knives, it really has noting to do with the Rockwell hardness of the steel. It must be something else that gives it the "soft" feel.
That's (almost certainly) not because of the regrind, though. From what I can tell, old regrinds weren't for restoration purposes and weren't done by amateurs. Hollow grinding was new technology, and it seems people took their wedges to professionals to have them turned into hollow ground razors not because they were worn out or rusted, but simply because it was possible beneficial (less at the edge =? easier to touch up). I don't have anything to cite; this is just the picture I remember being painted from years of reading on the forum.
Ok, so when we say "soft steel" I think that we are really talking about "face feel" not hardness of the steel. I would love to make some new razors with that old time feel, but that is very subjective. So can we figure out what makes those old razors feel that way? Now I made one before that Glenn said felt very similar. It was coal forged from a car coil spring and had about a 1/8 hollow grind to it (almost a near wedge). So here are my thoughts about what may make them feel that way.
Steel Type:
Who knows what these were actually made of? My guess is that it was a simple carbon steel with .5 to .7 percent carbon, but can someone confirm that? Alloy can also affect grain size, see below.
Rockwell Hardness:
While I don't think this is the key part to face feel, it would be good to have a sampling of hardness from this vintage of razors. It may be enlightening information.
Grain Size:
I would hate to brake a blade of this vintage on purpose, but does anyone have one that is already broken that we can look at? The assumption is that the finer the grain size, the softer the feel would be on the face. 1,000 grit sandpaper certainly feels softer than 100 grit sandpaper, so there is some logic to that thought.
Manufacturing Technique:
I'm told that these old blades were "cast", but what does that really mean? Casting can produce some very high quality metal parts (Ruger revolvers come to mind). Were they sand cast, heat treated and then finish ground? Or were they sand cast and then heated back up and hit with a die (drop forged) before being heat treated and finish ground? That could make a difference. Metal that has only been cast and has not gone through any further refinement process is not known for being very homogeneous or for having a good grain structure. Or were they not really cast at all? Is that just a marketing hype while they were actually drop forged from round stock? Did they run them through any thermal cycles in order to reduce the grain size?
Grind Profile:
These old blades were typically not hollow ground (lack of hollow grinding tools/technology at the time). The two "softest feeling" razors that I have made, have a thicker profile to them. The first being the one mentioned above and the second was forged from an old harrow blade and is ground to a near wedge. It that just a coincidence or is there something to that?
When I hear 'soft steel' in regards to razors, I relate that to how easily it hones. A 1075 steel will hone easier than a 1095 steel at the same rockwell hardness due to less and smaller iron carbides. I suspect that these razors that we know as 'soft steel' are something close to 1075 with a hardness in the mid to high 50s.
That is what I would suspect as well. I'm guessing that the coil spring I used was .55-.60 carbon (5160, 9260, 1060, etc...). It behaved as if it had even less carbon than old farm implement steel. While it certainly hardened and took a temper, the sparks were not near as abundant. Razors don't have to be very hard. If someone has a broken razor that was made in the 1700's or early 1800's, I'd love to have it for some testing. Even just the broken off toe would be enough. I could send it off along with a chunk of that coil spring for analysis.
Coil springs are often 5160 which is .6% carbon, but importantly the added chromium lowers the eutectoid of that alloy to .6 %. In plain carbon steels the eutectoid is closer to .8 %. At the eutectoid, most of the carbon can be in the martensite leaving little to form, hard to abrade, carbides.
I re-honed it and gave it another try, same results. It got dull at the exact same point in the shave. A few licks on the strop and it was shaving again. The steel is simply not at the correct hardness anymore. Either it was overheated at some point in time, or it was "case hardened" and has been worn/ground down past the proper temper. I'll still keep it and use it from time to time though.
I once had a vintage razor that would not hold a 16° edge, but it would hold a 17° edge. Have you measured the bevel angle?
Interesting thought. It is so worn and uneven that it is a bit of a challenge to get a good measurement. Depending on where I measure, I get anywhere from 19.3 - 22.5. This to me indicates that it used to be considerably wider. It is honed with two layers of tape (as per the instructions that it came with). Now, I could re-hone it with no tape. :shrug:
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Some people don't mind those obtuse angles, but I've never had a shave from a >19° edge that was better than meh.
Are you saying that those are the angles without tape, and then you're adding two layers?????
Those angles are with the tape. If I removed the tape, I my barely be within the "normal" range. You are correct about the shave quality. Meh is a good description.
Well the smoke has cleared out of the air. So I fired off the forge and turned a coil spring into a flat tapered piece of steel. Here it is after being pounded out and rough ground. There is still a ways to go yet.
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I have the basic shape done as well as the pivot hole. Now to take some measurements and figure out the edge grind.
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Not a very good picture, but it is ground enough to heat treat it. Hopefully I don't mess that part up, because so for it is turning out fairly well. Has anybody seen a replica 1700's razor recently? I can't think of any.
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Looking pretty good, so far.
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Notice the smile to the entire bottom if the blade
People can use ultrasound to figure out the composition of the steel without destroying it. I had someone tell me the type of steel under the chrome plating, so, I don't think polish should be a problem. If I remember one of my customers had someone drive 2 hours each way and test a few parts for less than $500. So it must not be that expensive if you take it in to them or even have someone local.
I not sure if they test hardness with an ultra sound, but there are nondestructive ways of getting that, too. Actually, you forge and heat treat, so you may have your own.
I have run into an issue before where the hardness test was inaccurate because the part was shot peaned. So the outside was harder than the inside. I know nothing of metal working practices in the olden days (or today, really) to know if anything done then could result in a similar issue.
So, I'm an engineer. If a customer wants me to analyze/reverse engineer a part I tell them to get it tested and they send me the results. So, I have exhausted my knowledge on the subject, but thought it may be worth looking into if you can't find a broken blade.
I know a place in Spokane with a hand held analyzer. I may be able to sweet talk them into testing it for me at no cost. One of the members on here had a broken blade at one point in time. He is looking around to see if he can find it. It would be really cool to get some actual data on one of these things and it would give me some targets to aim for.
I think that the blade profile is correct now. Looking at pictures of old razors I feel that I need to make the pivot hole larger and change the tail shape some. From what I see, most of them had a more pronounced hook on the end. Both modification basically have to be done now, before heat treating, if I'm going to change it.
Moderators, This thread has kind of morphed. Do you think that it would be appropriate to move it?
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Thanks Mike. I drilled out the pivot hole to 1/8" and it looks better now for the style. Also, I reshaped the tail. I found a huge variety of tail shapes for this era of razors, so I just went with what I thought looked good and "appropriate". Here it is out of the heat treat oven. The coloring is still on it. There is still a little bit of grinding left to do. Then it needs polished and my initials etched. I think that I'm going to hone it and use it before I put the scales on. I want to be sure that everything is correct before it gets scaled.
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Heat treated, ground and polished. Ready for honing and scales.
Woo Hoo! First shave with the new "Soft Steel" Razor. I have to admit that it was a bit awkward with no heel and no scales. However, it was the most effortless shave I've ever had. Also it is as close to BBS as I've ever come. Now to put some scales on this thing and give it another try.
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It is finished. I tried to take some pictures of it in different lighting. The scales are made from aged elk antler. I think that they may be a bit thick yet. Also, I decided not to use any washers. The wedge is made from elk antler as well. It is still a bit awkward to shave with since it does not have a heel and I'm not used to blades quite this long, but it was easier now that it has scales attached. It shaves very effortlessly and makes for a smooth shave. I need to send it to Outback for review and feedback since he is much more familiar with this style than I am.
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I'd be more than happy to give it a go.
There is a different grip associated with these razors, compared to modern grinds. But its mainly to protect my thumb, should the blade slip in my hand. Stroppin is toughest part I've encountered, especially if the scales are loose.